Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

ASX Stock Pairs Trade Journal

I hope that people are still using this strategy successfully.

Can we have some updates ?

Yes still beavering away. May was a great month for me but June so far has been very poor. The market has been choppy and volatile so opportunities do creep up often, but I am finding convergences harder to come by. The beaten down stocks just don't bounce back up easily anymore.
 
Yes still beavering away. May was a great month for me but June so far has been very poor. The market has been choppy and volatile so opportunities do creep up often, but I am finding convergences harder to come by. The beaten down stocks just don't bounce back up easily anymore.

Thanks for the reply,

Are you still using v2.99 or have you upgraded to V3.0 with cointegration ?

If you have, are there any +/- changes in your returns ?

Cheers
Sri
 
Yes still beavering away. May was a great month for me but June so far has been very poor. The market has been choppy and volatile so opportunities do creep up often, but I am finding convergences harder to come by. The beaten down stocks just don't bounce back up easily anymore.

A great week last week made back half June's loss. When the market turns one way or the other the account usually gets a boost... it is when oversold shares finally converge with their stronger counterparts.

Thanks for the reply,

Are you still using v2.99 or have you upgraded to V3.0 with cointegration ?

If you have, are there any +/- changes in your returns ?

Cheers
Sri

I've upgraded to v3.0. I have re-jigged my database and culled some pairs while added a few new ones. It's too early to tell the impact of the P&L, and I am not using a strict cointegration filter anyway.

One thing you need to watch with cointegration is that a choppy share will show high cointegration with any other share, regardless of whether they are truely 'fundamentally cointegrated' or not. It's up to the trader to decide whether they want true cointegration or just mathsmatical cointegration.
 
A great week last week made back half June's loss. When the market turns one way or the other the account usually gets a boost... it is when oversold shares finally converge with their stronger counterparts.



I've upgraded to v3.0. I have re-jigged my database and culled some pairs while added a few new ones. It's too early to tell the impact of the P&L, and I am not using a strict cointegration filter anyway.

One thing you need to watch with cointegration is that a choppy share will show high cointegration with any other share, regardless of whether they are truely 'fundamentally cointegrated' or not. It's up to the trader to decide whether they want true cointegration or just mathsmatical cointegration.

Thanks for the prompt reply.

What do you check to see that the Pair is fundamentally cointegrated?
Do you look for fundamental data like PE etc or the business?

Cheers
Sri
 
Is'nt cointegration just decorrelation over a shorter period with correlation over a longer period?

I think CBA versus WBC would be my pick. 2 WBC shares to 1 CBA shares would be approximately a neutral spread. Fundamental equals. Maximum divergence 15% over the last 15 years.
Holding both and selling options on them would smooth the equity curve somewhat too.

Cheers!
 
Is'nt cointegration just decorrelation over a shorter period with correlation over a longer period?

I think CBA versus WBC would be my pick. 2 WBC shares to 1 CBA shares would be approximately a neutral spread. Fundamental equals. Maximum divergence 15% over the last 15 years.
Holding both and selling options on them would smooth the equity curve somewhat too.

Cheers!
It's merely a statiscal property involving 2 or more time series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cointegration). The main (if not the only) reason traders look at cointegration is its stationarity (or mean reverting), if things divert enough in a stationary process, it WILL revert to its mean (but the exact timing of when is not known). It has absolutely nothing to do with correlation, which is another statistical concept.

Generally speaking the big four banks are good candidates for pair trading, but because they are good, they often not diverge enough to generate good profit after brokerage costs. (And more annoyingly, one bad trade will often erode 3 - 5 profitable trades)

It will be interesting to see how people go with the extra "cointegration" feature in PTF 3.0.
Personally I have some reservations about how cointegration can be expressed in a number between 0 to 1 (perhaps 1 - it is cointegrated, and 0 - it is not cointegrated? :rolleyes:). Nothing offensive and it may work out brilliantly, but just don't feel like using something I don't understand...
 
A great week last week made back half June's loss. When the market turns one way or the other the account usually gets a boost... it is when oversold shares finally converge with their stronger counterparts.

Over the last 2 weeks 2 of my losing trades (out of 2) turned around, in both cases the fundamentally inferior leg were playing the catch up in a general bullish market. Perhaps the trades aren't as market neutral as I want them to be...
 
Thanks for the prompt reply.

What do you check to see that the Pair is fundamentally cointegrated?
Do you look for fundamental data like PE etc or the business?

Cheers
Sri

The business! Do they both make steel or does one make bread? Go pair up BSL (the steel maker) and GFF (the bread maker) and you will probably find good correlation and may be even good co-integration. But their businesses are not fundamentally cointegrated.

If you can make money trading that pair, however, then by all means.

I do look at PE sometimes but it's not that important considering my positions are usually 2 weeks at most. However you can use PE for longer term pairs trading (I think).

It's merely a statiscal property involving 2 or more time series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cointegration). The main (if not the only) reason traders look at cointegration is its stationarity (or mean reverting), if things divert enough in a stationary process, it WILL revert to its mean (but the exact timing of when is not known). It has absolutely nothing to do with correlation, which is another statistical concept.

Generally speaking the big four banks are good candidates for pair trading, but because they are good, they often not diverge enough to generate good profit after brokerage costs. (And more annoyingly, one bad trade will often erode 3 - 5 profitable trades)

It will be interesting to see how people go with the extra "cointegration" feature in PTF 3.0.
Personally I have some reservations about how cointegration can be expressed in a number between 0 to 1 (perhaps 1 - it is cointegrated, and 0 - it is not cointegrated? :rolleyes:). Nothing offensive and it may work out brilliantly, but just don't feel like using something I don't understand...

So true about the Big 4...

I found that a lot of my favourite pairs (REITs, building materials etc) that I have high confidence in all have really high co-integration. However I still apply my own discretion...

2 examples currently is API/SIP and BSL/OST. Both pairs have 0.99 co-integration and screaming for a trade, but I can't pull the trigger. I just know that the moment I do, API/BSL will go into a trading halt announcing the next profit downgrade and capital raising...
 
It's merely a statiscal property involving 2 or more time series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cointegration). The main (if not the only) reason traders look at cointegration is its stationarity (or mean reverting), if things divert enough in a stationary process, it WILL revert to its mean (but the exact timing of when is not known). It has absolutely nothing to do with correlation, which is another statistical concept.

Generally speaking the big four banks are good candidates for pair trading, but because they are good, they often not diverge enough to generate good profit after brokerage costs. (And more annoyingly, one bad trade will often erode 3 - 5 profitable trades)

It will be interesting to see how people go with the extra "cointegration" feature in PTF 3.0.
Personally I have some reservations about how cointegration can be expressed in a number between 0 to 1 (perhaps 1 - it is cointegrated, and 0 - it is not cointegrated? :rolleyes:). Nothing offensive and it may work out brilliantly, but just don't feel like using something I don't understand...


I would view the number 1 as 100% sameness and 0 as opposite or least sameness in terms of that undisclosed indicator formula. Perhaps they used the Pearson algorithm or Dicky-fuller test. Both of their measurements values are between 1 to -1 though, which could be adjusted to a 1 to 0 boundry.

Once I was told by a maths teacher that polynomials were a completely different concept to calculus. The following day she conceded that both are methods for producing curves. She sure had them ;)
For cointegration and correlation, I would postulate that both mathematical & statistical methods are measuring 'sameness' within 2 different time series. Although we shouldn't mix our apples and oranges, for me they're wholesome and nutritious, blendable and we can equally sqeeze them for their juice :p

I was thinking more of writing options for instant reward, or CFD's for that bank pair.
Preferably some testing needs to be done first.
 
As a game here are the ratio charts of 6 pairs... would people like to guess what the ballpark co-integration value is for each pair according to PTF software?

20110707 Pairs ratio chart vs cointegration.png

I shall reveal the answer in a few days :)
 
As a game here are the ratio charts of 6 pairs... would people like to guess what the ballpark co-integration value is for each pair according to PTF software?

View attachment 43557

I shall reveal the answer in a few days :)

Do I get to know the names of the pairs as the prize? I'm drooling over pairs 1, 4 and 5, so they must have a damn high score :D
 
I had a short on MCC yesterday and I copped it sweet today.

Never would I have thought that someone would launch a takeover for a coal stock one day after the carbon tax is announced. In fact, yesterday I noticed surprise strength in WHC and NHC - so I avoided shorting them (in case something was up), and chose the beaten down MCC instead. Unbelievable... :banghead: :banghead:

This is the first takeover I ran into after over 1000 trades. Thankfully the position was <5% of the account, so the 35% jump today only caused me ~1.6% damage. Not the worst percentage wise, but the worst in terms of $$ lost as I just doubled the capital in my account for this financial year.

Oh well. I guess if you try to pick up pennies long enough in a doggie park you will step onto dog poo eventually.
 
iv been reading on pair trading over the couple of days, i have a few questions;

*when looking at the correlation between 2 shares, how far back do you go? 1month? 6month? 12month? etc as it will be different for each time frame.

*when/how do you do determine the entry points to enter? when there's a xx gap? etc?

*is it better to trade 2 stocks from the same sector (eg rio/bhp) or different sectors?
 
I had a short on MCC yesterday and I copped it sweet today.

Never would I have thought that someone would launch a takeover for a coal stock one day after the carbon tax is announced. In fact, yesterday I noticed surprise strength in WHC and NHC - so I avoided shorting them (in case something was up), and chose the beaten down MCC instead. Unbelievable... :banghead: :banghead:

This is the first takeover I ran into after over 1000 trades. Thankfully the position was <5% of the account, so the 35% jump today only caused me ~1.6% damage. Not the worst percentage wise, but the worst in terms of $$ lost as I just doubled the capital in my account for this financial year.

Oh well. I guess if you try to pick up pennies long enough in a doggie park you will step onto dog poo eventually.

This dog poo definitely stinks as hell, I guess no one but Peabody & ArcelorMittal could really see it coming in this sort of timing. Glad you have proper capital management in place so your account doesn't blow up otherwise.
 
This dog poo definitely stinks as hell, I guess no one but Peabody & ArcelorMittal could really see it coming in this sort of timing. Glad you have proper capital management in place so your account doesn't blow up otherwise.

That position size was about 1/2 of what I would have used. But with the recent increase in account size I wanted to take things slower and make 2 entries to build the full position.

So lucky it was half the size. Very unlucky to get hit straight away on the day...
 
Two interesting stocks today:

1. Profit downgrade from DJS today making it plunged 15%, I'm closely watching this one cuz I really don't see fundamentally MYR can be any better if DJS is doing bad in sales

2. FXJ, some heavy selling is happening right now, for no apparent news (still researching), might try my luck if I really find nothing...
 
Two interesting stocks today:

1. Profit downgrade from DJS today making it plunged 15%, I'm closely watching this one cuz I really don't see fundamentally MYR can be any better if DJS is doing bad in sales

2. FXJ, some heavy selling is happening right now, for no apparent news (still researching), might try my luck if I really find nothing...

DJS and MYR are forecasting the same NPAT now. But DJS is worth ~$1.7B vs MYR ~$1.45B.

Saw the FXJ plunge but by the time the PTF alert came through it's already moved back up... that's why we want live data!!
 
DJS and MYR are forecasting the same NPAT now. But DJS is worth ~$1.7B vs MYR ~$1.45B.

Saw the FXJ plunge but by the time the PTF alert came through it's already moved back up... that's why we want live data!!

DJS's new PAT is down 0.5% to 2%, vs -5% reaffirmed by MYR, DJS also did so from a better earning figure last year (positive growth) against MYR (negative). These numbers are still telling me that DJS is a better business over MYR and deserves its price premium.

The long term average price ratio is 1.39 (since MYR listing, 1.4 on day 1), so some long term cointegration may be happening (not tested). Anyway, I only took half position size than normal to test my read of the two stocks, and hopefully I can see a good outcome.

Watching FXJ yesterday around 11 am was fun (and rewarding), the plunge from .905 to .855 all happened in less than 1 minute (institution sell off, then possibly followed by stop loss triggers at .9 and below, or the institution was just keen to dump more of FXJ), then a V shape rebound soon after.

Another stock that seems out of whack in the last few days is TOL, not quite sure what's happening with that, so it looks like there is a good trading opportunity.
 
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