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ASF spelling and grammar lessons

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2020hindsight said:
here's a test - there are two questions

So how many questions marks? (,) or if you prefer, which is correct?:-

a) to be, or not to be?

b) to be?, or not to be?

c) to be, or not to be??
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It's not really a sentence is it. **

The full sentence is: To be, or not to be, that is the question. That is a statement so a full stop is correct.

In fact in the actual discourse in Hamlet, it has a semi-colon.

** Full stop or question mark?
 
I think it should be :-

to be? or not to be? is that a question?
whether 'tis necessary in the mind
to add a heap of question marks
or to take arms against a sea of pedants,
and by opposing , amend them? :confused:

when painting a placard in backyards
for APEC or those ones for "punk U8" 's
it's not so much commas on placards
it more bout the WORDS that you punctuate.

(sheesh they're getting cornier than Kansas in August :eek: )

PS I suppose you're gonna expect me to concede that you're 100% right (?)
(!) ;)
Gordon Macrae
 

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wayneL said:
Here's a punctuation question.

One thing I do remember hearing in English at school, (one of the few times I was actually listening) is that a comma should never precede the word "and".

e.g. I went to the pub, and proceeded to get as drunk as a skunk.

In the above example, the comma is obviously incorrect. However in some sentences, a comma seems to make sense before "and", and I often insert the comma at that point, such as this sentence.

Is this incorrect?
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Wayne, I remember learning the same thing. Another allied rule was never to begin a sentence with a preposition.

However, I believe this has become somewhat more flexible these days and often in the interests of more adequately conveying meaning, or perhaps to convey additional stress of a particular point, we do see "And" beginning sentences. I find myself using it.

If we think about the concept in terms of how it sounds in conversation rather than how it looks when written, then perhaps that makes what I'm attempting to say more clear. I'll attempt an example:

"We've had the most terrifying storm. At first great jagged spears of lightning pierced the sky, followed by roll after roll of deafening thunder. And then the rain began, drenching everything in moments."

From a purely grammatical point of view, the "And" at the start of the last sentence is incorrect. But I think it adds meaning to conveying the violence of the storm. Agree? Disagree?

May I slip into this thread my irritation with the over-use of smilies?
(Now perhaps that should have not been a question mark in terms of the earlier discussion in that I'm not actually asking someone for the answer to this question given I am already expressing what I want to. This is an archetypal rhetorical question.)
The occasional smilie is fun and makes a point. But tossing them in after every few words is simply irritating and gives the impression that the writer is not confident enough about the content of what he/she is saying to allow it to stand alone.
 
Pat said:
To me punctuation is logical, however the spelling of some words is not. Like 2020's examples above.
Why do we have such pronunciations as 'ph' meaning 'f' and so on?
Perhaps the slang of now days is language evolution?
Also I’ve learnt to cut and paste into MS word to help my spelling, but I come unstuck with some of the previous examples… patients/patience etc.
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You are right, Pat. English is a difficult language to learn. It hasn't helped that there have been so many changes in fashion regarding how to teach literacy in schools. Many teachers in our public schools these days cannot spell and have a minimal understanding of grammar. It's not their fault.
They were never properly taught.

My suggestion is to read, read, read. We learn words and their spellings largely as a result of repeated recognition. I doubt that you will find too many voracious readers who have any difficulty with spelling.

Please let's not give up and succumb to slang and abbreviated language.
Go and get the collected works of Oscar Wilde. There you have clever use of language, along with much wisdom and wit.
 
wayneL said:
Here's a punctuation question.
e.g. I went to the pub, and proceeded to get as drunk as a skunk.
Is this incorrect?
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Julia said:
Wayne, I remember learning the same thing. Another allied rule was never to begin a sentence with a preposition.
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not sure about either of these - but one thing I'm absolutely certain of - you shouldn't mix your met-her-fors.

I mean - I went to the pub once, and proceeded to get drunk,

and then I began a sentence with a proposition -

.....don't do it - you'll get a black eye for sure. :2twocents
 
Julia said:
I'll attempt an example:

"We've had the most terrifying storm. At first great jagged spears of lightning pierced the sky, followed by roll after roll of deafening thunder. And then the rain began, drenching everything in moments."

From a purely grammatical point of view, the "And" at the start of the last sentence is incorrect. But I think it adds meaning to conveying the violence of the storm. Agree? Disagree?
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I do remember that one too.

I often begin a sentence with "and" as well. As you say it is grammatically incorrect in strict formal English, but it seems to be common in conversational English. And it seems to work just fine when writing in a conversational style.

As we all know, conversational English is far more dynamic and forgiving, and contains any number of hideous transgressions that would never make it to the written word.

I guess it depends whether writing a formal document, or waffling on message boards. :)

Anyway, saw another beauty at a different forum tonight:

I guess I just have to sit and weight for the slow hand of the law to help me.
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Oops.
 
Julia said:
You are right, Pat. English is a difficult language to learn. It hasn't helped that there have been so many changes in fashion regarding how to teach literacy in schools. Many teachers in our public schools these days cannot spell and have a minimal understanding of grammar. It's not their fault.
They were never properly taught.

My suggestion is to read, read, read. We learn words and their spellings largely as a result of repeated recognition. I doubt that you will find too many voracious readers who have any difficulty with spelling.

Please let's not give up and succumb to slang and abbreviated language.
Go and get the collected works of Oscar Wilde. There you have clever use of language, along with much wisdom and wit.
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I hear what you are saying. Reading has helped alot, especially with my vocabulary. However english and writing has always been a thorn in my side whilst at school, I'm more of a maths/science man.

I was kidding with the cents, just pointiing out more "quirks". Do you think we pronounce the 't' as opposed to the 's'?
 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/11/2057211.htm "The President, of course, sees Mrs Bush as a tremendous asset and a very good spokesperson on some of these issues," Ms Perino said, adding that the couple is "united on this issue".
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personally I'd have said the couple are united :eek:

btw, as with all things, it pays to double Czech ;)
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=304774
Czech babies to return to 'real' family
Nikola and Veronika both were born last December 9, delighting two sets of parents who brought home what they thought were their bundles of joy.

Now, 10 months later, Czech authorities are investigating what officials at a hospital in the country's southeast say was a frightful mistake: The girls - somehow swapped at birth - wound up with the wrong families.

.....Police spokeswoman Marcela Lavicka said the investigation was in its early stages and that it was not yet clear when investigators would begin questioning the hospital's staff.

The hospital said in a statement Wednesday that it was cooperating with police and that it was about to wrap up its own internal investigation into what it called a "regrettable case".

....The apparently accidental mix-up came to light earlier this year when Nikola's father, Libor Broza, became suspicious because his daughter did not resemble him. He had his DNA tested. The results: He could not have fathered Nikola.

Broza's partner, Jaroslava Trojanova, had a maternity test, and her results also were negative.

.....Both couples, who met last week for the first time and were introduced to each other's girls, have agreed to swap their daughters before the end of the year.

"Our daughter looks so much like me that I don't need any DNA tests to know she is mine," Broza told Czech radio.

"Of course, we are happy, but on the other hand, we also feel terrible," Trojanova said.

Health Minister Tomas Julinek said he could not rule out the possibility that similar mix-ups have happened in the past. In an interview with Impuls radio this week, he said Nikola's and Veronika's parents should be compensated.

........."The main reason for the meeting is to get the families ready for the exchange and learn more about each other," psychologist Olga Hinkova, who is helping the couples through the transition, was quoted as saying in Wednesday's edition of the Mlada Fronta Dnes daily.

"It will be more difficult for the mothers to cope with it than for the children," she said.
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bit like Danny Devito and Schwartzy ;)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096320/
 
What's the longest word in the English language?

It used to be "antidisestablishmentarianism", but the word is basically defunct these days, and I seem to recall that there is a longer one now.

Anyone know it?

<Edit> Too easy... Wikipedia knows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_word_in_English

The longest non-technical word is "Floccinaucinihilipilification".
 
wayneL said:
What's the longest word in the English language?

It used to be "antidisestablishmentarianism", but the word is basically defunct these days, and I seem to recall that there is a longer one now.

Anyone know it?

<Edit> Too easy... Wikipedia knows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_word_in_English

The longest non-technical word is "Floccinaucinihilipilification".
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According to Merriam-Webster .... The longest word that you'll find in our Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged, is pneumonoultramicro-scopicsilicovolcanoconiosis, which has 45 letters and which is a disease of the lungs caused by inhaling very fine irritant particles.

It is easier to pronounce too.
 
An extract from today's "Crikey.com":

Warwick Sauer writes: Re. "Crikey Policy Comparison Part 8: death penalty" (yesterday, item 13). Crikey wrote: "Kevin Rudd wrapped McClelland’s knuckles..." Exactly what did Kevin Rudd "wrap" Robert McClelland’s knuckles in? Bandages embedded with broken glass? Therapeutic mud and seaweed? Or, perhaps: a dissertation on the respective meanings of "wrap" and "rap"?
 
Julia said:
"Kevin Rudd wrapped McClelland’s knuckles..." Exactly what did Kevin Rudd "wrap" Robert McClelland’s knuckles in? Bandages embedded with broken glass? Therapeutic mud and seaweed? Or, perhaps: a dissertation on the respective meanings of "wrap" and "rap"?
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off topic - but a couple of quotes about glass, gloves, knuckles, - brilliant imagery (in the case of Aung San Suu Kyi - as indeed that crikey article is ) :eek:

Aung San Suu Kyi :-
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=207479&highlight=glass#post207479

Like Cousins was interviewed the other day "so you've put your gloves on" (referring to fight with Turnbull over pulpmill) - "hell no", he said, " this has been bare knuckles for a long time" ;)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/23/2013605.htm

PS
Exactly what did Kevin Rudd "wrap" Robert McClelland’s knuckles in?
Exactly in what did Kevin Rudd "wrap" Robert McClelland’s knuckles? :rolleyes:
 
wayneL said:
What's the longest word in the English language?
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http://members.aol.com/gulfhigh2/words12.html
LLANFAIRPWLLGWYNGYLLGOGERYCHWYRNDROBWLLLLANTYSILIOGOGOGOCH is according to one source the longest placename in the world, with 58 letters. It is a town in North Wales meaning "St. Mary's Church in the hollow of the white hazel near to the rapid whirlpool of Llantysilio of the red cave" or "St. Mary's (Church) by the white aspen over the whirlpool, and St. Tysilio's (Church) by the red cave" in Welsh.

Rob Ainsley, a reader of this page, writes:

Further to the 'Word Oddities' entry on the small town in Wales with the long name: the 'real', and official, name of the place is Llanfairpwllgwyngyll, which is how it appears on maps and road signs. It's also referred to as Llanfair PG, which is how I've seen letters addressed.
The 19th-century extension of the name is certainly not in anything like common use, except by tedious English people like me showing off.

However, what Llanfair PG does have over other long place-names is that there is a town, in which several shops and the railway station proudly display the complete long version of the name. (This is contrast to Taumata... in New Zealand, which is a hill with no houses or settlements on it.)

My favourite example of a mammoth shop sign is that above the Volvo concessionaires in the town. Car showrooms are do not readily put lexical celebration above commercial realities, but the standard white-on-blue lettering meticulously spells out Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch. I don't know about their letterheads.

There's a joke elsewhere on the web about two people who stop for lunch and argue about the pronunciation. One asks the lady behind the counter, "Can you say, very slowly, the name of the place we're in?", to which the young lady replies "Burrr, gerrr, kinggg". Sadly - no, fortunately - Llanfair PG is too small to have a Burger King, McDonald's or any other fast-food chain.

The bit of the name most people enjoy is the motoric absurdity of the ending '....go-go-goch'. I'm not a Welsh speaker, but I believe it comes about as follows. The ending comes from 'red cave'. This would be 'ogof goch' , but F seems a weak sound in Welsh and it is swallowed by the following G. The preceding 'Church of St Tysilio' is 'llan tysilio', and because the following phrase begins with the O of 'ogo(f)', a G is inserted to aid pronunciation.

Any cyclists out there may be interested to know that Llanfair PG is on the Welsh National Cycle Route, Sustrans's long-distance cycle route from Cardiff in the south to Holyhead in the north. Taking about a week to do, the route takes you through some wonderful scenery, some grim industrial wastes, some delightful little towns, and this extravagantly named little town.

Apart from photographing the extended name-plates there's little to do in Llanfair PG, though the historic Menai suspension Bridge a couple of miles back is worth seeing.

Mark Brader writes, "It occurs to me that this may be the longest word to have ever been spoken in a movie. In the 1968 SF/comedy film Barbarella, there is a joke where one character says, as rapidly as possible, 'The password will be Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch' and the character he's talking to repeats it back correctly to him at the same speed."

A website at http://llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.co.uk/ has more information and claims the village is the longest name in Britain. It also states:
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Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.co.uk is often referred to as the longest valid domain name, even though it does not quite have the full 63 characters allowed. The actual undisputed longest valid domain name registered in the world also points to this website, and is:

llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogochuchaf.org.uk
This has 70 characters (including the org.uk) and is the upper (old) part of the village of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch, more usually locally called "pentre uchaf". The ending "uchaf" is the welsh for "higher" or "upper", so pentre uchaf means "upper village".

Dale Williams of New Zealand says that the Welsh placename is a nineteenth-century fabrication, adopted to look good on their railway place boards, whereas a Maori name for a hill in New Zealand is genuine and was in general use. It has 85 letters:

TAUMATAWHAKATANGIHANGAKOAUAUOTAMATEATURIPUKAKAPIKI- MAUNGAHORONUKUPOKAIWHENUAKITANATAHU. Williams says, "If we want to go there now we call it Taumata." New Zealand broadcaster Henare Te Ua says the word celebrates the prowess of a great Maori chief who possessed enormous personal power. Chief Tamatea was so mighty and powerful that, metaphorically, he could even eat mountains. There was a gentle side to his personality too. He could play his nose flute beautifully and quite charmingly to his loved ones. The word, Henare said, means "The summit of the hill, where Tamatea, who is known as the land eater, slid down, climbed up and swallowed mountains, played on his nose flute to his loved one." The hill, about 1000 feet in height, is in Southern Hawke's Bay, a district on the eastern side of the north island. [Neil Carleton] [Note: The spelling of this word was corrected on July 4, 2000. Prior to that date, the "o" preceding "tamatea" was missing. Thanks to Robert Love for pointing out this error. The word as spelled above now has 85 letters and agrees with the spelling in the 1992 Guinness Book of Records.]

There is a 66-letter place name in Wales, according to Dr. David Crystal's Encyclopedia of Language: GORSAFAWDDACHAIDRAIGODANHEDDOGLEDDOLONPENRHYNAREURDRAETHCEREDIGION, meaning "the Mawddach station and its dragon teeth at the Northern Penrhyn Road on the golden beach of Cardigan bay."

According to The Book of Names by J. N. Hook, the longest place name in the U. S. may be NUNATHLOOGAGAMIUTBINGOI, the name of some dunes in Alaska, taken from Eskimo.

However, in Massachusetts, there is Lake CHARGOGAGOGMANCHARGOGAGOGCHARBUNAGUNGAMOG, usually listed on maps as "Lake Webster." It supposedly means "You fish on your side, I'll fish on my side, nobody fish in the middle."

A reader of this page suggests the word is spelled CHARGOGGAGOGGMANCHAUGGAGOGGCHAUBUNAGUNGAMOGG. Mrs. Byrne's Dictionary spells the word CHARGOGGAGOGGMANCHAUGGAGOGGCHAUBUNAGUNGAMAUGG.

However, another reader of this page writes: "I live in Dudley, MA, just west of Webster, MA. and I can verify that the lake is spelled Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchabunagungamaugg by the locals. Also, it doesn't supposedly mean anything. Nobody knows what it means. the 'i fish on my side....' or 'Neutral fishing ground' are just common guesses. From what I've learned, people that have attempted translations learned that it has nothing to do with fishing at all, but the 'neutral borders' might be a closer translation, as it's at the boundary of where a few Indian tribes once lived."

.......
...
The longest place names in Canada appear to be PEKWACHNAMAYKOSKWASKWAYPINWANIK LAKE in Manitoba (31 letters, not counting "lake") and ILE KUCHISTINIWAMISKAHIKAN in Quebec [Charles Turner].
....

The longest place-name in the world is the full name for Bangkok, the capital city of Thailand: KRUNGTHEP MAHANAKHON BOVORN RATANAKOSIN MAHINTHARAYUTTHAYA MAHADILOKPOP NOPARATRATCHATHANI BURIROM UDOMRATCHANIVETMAHASATHAN AMORNPIMAN AVATARNS ATHIT SAKKATHATTIYAVISNUKARMPRASIT, meaning "The land of angels, the great city (of) immortality, various of devine gems, the great angelic land unconquerable, land of nine noble gems, the royal city, the pleasant capital, place of the grand royal palace, forever land of angels and reincarnated spirits, predestined and created by the highest Deva(s)." [Stuart Kidd; name taken from Guinness Book of Records, the meaning taken from http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Flats/1233/bkk.htm]
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ps apologies to any residents of KRUNGTHEP MAHANAKHON BOVORN RATANAKOSIN MAHINTHARAYUTTHAYA MAHADILOKPOP NOPARATRATCHATHANI BURIROM UDOMRATCHANIVETMAHASATHAN AMORNPIMAN AVATARNS ATHIT SAKKATHATTIYAVISNUKARMPRASIT, if in typing this I made any typos :eek:
 
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