Any real estate lawyers around here?

gordon2007 · 16 April 2013

So the MRS and I are building our dream retirement home. We have council approval to build, but know the neighbours to the left who already own a home there, and the neighbours to the right who just have an empty block, have decided to sue us to stop building.

So what I've learned so far is that;
A. They can't actually sue us, they can only sue the council for approving such a category 1 structure.
B. Because it's a cat 1 they don't actually have the right of appeal to the ERD court system, instead having to go
straight to supreme court.
C. Everyone thinks their case us unsubstantiated and frivolous.

So my question is, can anyone tell me what the next step is? I've already received letters from their counsel telling me to stop building, and I politely told them to get stuffed.

MrBurns · 16 April 2013

gordon2007 said:
So the MRS and I are building our dream retirement home. We have council approval to build, but know the neighbours to the left who already own a home there, and the neighbours to the right who just have an empty block, have decided to sue us to stop building.

So what I've learned so far is that;
A. They can't actually sue us, they can only sue the council for approving such a category 1 structure.
B. Because it's a cat 1 they don't actually have the right of appeal to the ERD court system, instead having to go
straight to supreme court.
C. Everyone thinks their case us unsubstantiated and frivolous.

So my question is, can anyone tell me what the next step is? I've already received letters from their counsel telling me to stop building, and I politely told them to get stuffed.

Nice neighbours

What are the grounds for their objection ?

You have a permit so just go ahead and sue THEM if they cause delays that cost you.

MrBurns · 16 April 2013

and don't you reply at all to any correspondence, get a lawyer if it looks sticky.

gordon2007 · 16 April 2013

It's all to do with setback. The person on the left has built their house much further back than he ever needed to. As such he will lose a tiny bit of his peripheral view. As far as I'm concerned, the person on the right can't claim a loss of view as they don't actually have a dwelling there.

We're certainly not encroaching or blocking views but they're just getting themselves all worked up over nothing. I'm not even going to hire a lawyer as they're not actually suing me, they can't I've done nothing wrong. They can try and sue the council but it will cost them heaps of money because it goes straight to the supreme court.

MrBurns · 16 April 2013

gordon2007 said:
It's all to do with setback. The person on the left has built their house much further back than he ever needed to. As such he will lose a tiny bit of his peripheral view. As far as I'm concerned, the person on the right can't claim a loss of view as they don't actually have a dwelling there.

We're certainly not encroaching or blocking views but they're just getting themselves all worked up over nothing. I'm not even going to hire a lawyer as they're not actually suing me, they can't I've done nothing wrong. They can try and sue the council but it will cost them heaps of money because it goes straight to the supreme court.

You have a permit just go ahead.

FlyingFox · 16 April 2013

gordon2007 said:
So the MRS and I are building our dream retirement home. We have council approval to build, but know the neighbours to the left who already own a home there, and the neighbours to the right who just have an empty block, have decided to sue us to stop building.

So what I've learned so far is that;
A. They can't actually sue us, they can only sue the council for approving such a category 1 structure.
B. Because it's a cat 1 they don't actually have the right of appeal to the ERD court system, instead having to go
straight to supreme court.
C. Everyone thinks their case us unsubstantiated and frivolous.

So my question is, can anyone tell me what the next step is? I've already received letters from their counsel telling me to stop building, and I politely told them to get stuffed.

On what grounds are they asking you to stop building? If you have approvals I would think they have no claim.

gordon2007 · 16 April 2013

They're saying the council was wrong to give us approval. I suspect they'll have a really hard time getting that up in supreme court. We're going ahead with the building anyway. just hate to have neighbourhood wars filmed in our tiny little town.

FlyingFox said:
On what grounds are they asking you to stop building? If you have approvals I would think they have no claim.

Julia · 16 April 2013

It seems like a very unpleasant start to the dream retirement.
Have you actually tried talking to the neighbours about what they see as the problem and possibly reaching some sort of compromise?
Do you want to live out your days in an atmosphere of hatred and tension?

Whiskers · 16 April 2013

gordon2007 said:
They're saying the council was wrong to give us approval. I suspect they'll have a really hard time getting that up in supreme court. We're going ahead with the building anyway. just hate to have neighbourhood wars filmed in our tiny little town.

How high is your building and which direction is the view?

gordon2007 · 16 April 2013

It's not the height. It's the view to the left and to the right. It's a beachfront view facing west. They want us to move the house 3 metres back behind their house so they can have a view. But if we did that then all we'd be looking at is the sides of their house. It's really quite crazy what they're asking us to do. Every one of us all will have the same front view facing the ocean and west towards the sunset.

At the moment the person on our left will lose a very slight view north. Then once the people on the right build we'll lose a very slight view north. Even if we built back 3 metres the principal would still stand in regards to views, except because we'd move it back three metres we'd lose more.

Nobody in our whole council can figure out what they're on about. Especially since the person on our right hasn't even built and has no plans to build for another 5 years.

Whiskers said:
How high is your building and which direction is the view?

FlyingFox · 16 April 2013

gordon2007 said:
They're saying the council was wrong to give us approval. I suspect they'll have a really hard time getting that up in supreme court. We're going ahead with the building anyway. just hate to have neighbourhood wars filmed in our tiny little town.

Then the onerous is on them to get council to stop you.

Julia said:
It seems like a very unpleasant start to the dream retirement.
Have you actually tried talking to the neighbours about what they see as the problem and possibly reaching some sort of compromise?
Do you want to live out your days in an atmosphere of hatred and tension?

+1. This could turn ugly later on. I would try and talk to them but they should not be threatening you with anything unless you are not following council approved plans.

gordon2007 · 16 April 2013

I have. In fact the person to the left who already has a house, I've given him a copy of our plans 9 months ago as he is a 'friend' and have asked him if he had any concerns or issues. He has said nothing and we've asked him more times then I could possibly remember. He actually wants me to build our house further behind then his.

Also just last weekend we all had a talk about it. But there is just no way I can move our house back 3 metres further than theirs. It's just crazy to even ask that. The person who has the empty block, they're stating they'll be happy to move it back three metres too. But they won't put it in writing. Now they're not planning to build for another 5 years. That's a very long time. Anything can happen. they could change their minds, they could sell it, they could die.

It really is just crazy what they are requesting. If we agreed to do this, every house on the esplanade would be built as far forward as possible but ours. I'm not real estate guru, but surely that would diminish the value of our house.

Lastly, because they went straight to the council and threatened legal action, if I were to even agree to move my house back, i'd have to rescind my approval and resubmit. Thus putting myself at risk of the council not approving it in fear of getting legal action taken against them. Then I'd be totally stuff.

Julia said:
It seems like a very unpleasant start to the dream retirement.
Have you actually tried talking to the neighbours about what they see as the problem and possibly reaching some sort of compromise?
Do you want to live out your days in an atmosphere of hatred and tension?

gordon2007 · 16 April 2013

Just to clarify. The setback for the road is 8 metres. Every other house on the road has been build at 8 metres. They want us to build our house at 11 metres back.

drsmith · 16 April 2013

gordon2007 said:
I have. In fact the person to the left who already has a house, I've given him a copy of our plans 9 months ago as he is a 'friend' and have asked him if he had any concerns or issues. He has said nothing and we've asked him more times then I could possibly remember. He actually wants me to build our house further behind then his.

He's the sort of friend who should build his dream home on the dark side of the moon.

Then he can try suing NASA for the lunar rovers they left behind.

Whiskers · 16 April 2013

gordon2007 said:
Just to clarify. The setback for the road is 8 metres. Every other house on the road has been build at 8 metres. They want us to build our house at 11 metres back.

If it not a height issue, ie above one story, and you build on the same approved setback as the rest of the street, it looks like they're just trying to intimidate you into leaving them a better view.

If you nor the council have not been issued wth a court application or injunction, stick to your plans.

If your neighbours want to keep the view over your property, tell them they should have bought it and leave it vacant for their view.

Julia · 16 April 2013

Whiskers said:
If your neighbours want to keep the view over your property, tell them they should have bought it and leave it vacant for their view.

Wow, this from the avowed dispute resolution specialist!

Whiskers · 16 April 2013

Julia said:
Wow, this from the avowed dispute resolution specialist!

Yep... because to bow to the whims of others in such an important investment is to submit to the bullying of others. That doesn't resolve conflict, it makes your neighbour more prone to create further conflict just to make you back down so he gets what he wants.

One main point in assessing the ground work for conflict resolution is whether any of the participants are making unreasonable demands of the other. If your neighbour wants you to build further back than them just so they can have a better view (than you), that's clearly unreasonably demanding.

Also, just to clarify, there is a difference between behavioural conflict and abuse/bullying.

Conflict may be to dissagree over the interpretation of the distance in council by-law... abuse/bullying is to demand your neighbour set back further than you.

skc · 17 April 2013

Tell them to move their house forward by 3m.

And definitely tell them to get stuffed.

Julia · 17 April 2013

Whiskers said:
Yep... because to bow to the whims of others in such an important investment is to submit to the bullying of others. That doesn't resolve conflict, it makes your neighbour more prone to create further conflict just to make you back down so he gets what he wants.

One main point in assessing the ground work for conflict resolution is whether any of the participants are making unreasonable demands of the other. If your neighbour wants you to build further back than them just so they can have a better view (than you), that's clearly unreasonably demanding.

Also, just to clarify, there is a difference between behavioural conflict and abuse/bullying.

Conflict may be to dissagree over the interpretation of the distance in council by-law... abuse/bullying is to demand your neighbour set back further than you.

OK, fair enough. I see what you mean, Whiskers.
I would just hate the thought of living amongst people I couldn't get on with.

Gringotts Bank · 17 April 2013

gordon this is an issue of territoriality, power and possession. It is more likely they are acting this way because they feel threatened, rather than because they enjoy making life difficult for you.

In such a negotiation, you could big or small. Going big would mean powering up your defense and offense and just trying to blast them out of the water. This could be difficult, because it entails making them an enemy, and unless you know your enemy well, you could well be outsized and outnumbered. Maybe your neighbour is a ruthless QC. In some way, heartache will follow whether you win or lose

You could go small. Takes a lot of skill and humility to go small. You make yourself powerless and friendly, a little harmless, humble guy. You get them onside because they have never dealt with such a person in their professional or personal lives. They don't bother about hunting you, because they see you as a 'nothing', a non-player...someone of no significance. They have become wealthy through intimidation and control tactics, and you can wrong foot them... not in a nasty way, but enough to get what you want without rocking the boat. But it's not enough to be perceived as powerless - you must also be genuinely friendly. This will be a novelty for them. It's much easier to play this role if you naturally humble and friendly, but anyone can make the effort.

Going small can backfire. They may look at you as easy prey and decide it would be fun to destroy you! These aren't the sort of people you want to live anywhere near. But by playing small, you will find out whether they are just afraid of encroachment on their precious views (in which case you can easily win them over and live happily ever after), or whether they are total a-holes you want to avoid. In the second case, sell you block of land to a bikie gang.

The last option is to see things from their point of view and go with their demands. Ask to see inside their house to check what would happen to the view. Maybe it's worse than you expected. Maybe it's not such a big deal for you to go back 3m. Or maybe a strategically placed hedge will fix everything.

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