A white perspective of Racism and White Privilege in the US

[basilio]

Noticed how I commented on the clear, obvious facts and truth, you accused me of 'twisting things into pretzels, and you proceeded to twist up a very impressive pretzel?

You literally posted something which is literally and blatantly designed to make people suspicious of people who behave perfectly and do nothing wrong, and make them believe that people doing bad things hidden away where no one can see and no evidence can exist is a common, normal thing.

This is race baiting, this is divisive. This is fear mongering. This is blatant. Your defense of it is 'pretzel twisting'. Calling it what it blatantly is is not pretzel twisting.

You are a sheep. What you mindlessly follow is evil.

Did you actually read the whole story Sdajii ? It probably doesn't matter . You seem quite determined to condemn Kove and I to the fires of eternal damnation for daring to suggest there is racism, overt and covert in the US and also Australia.

Koves comments about people who don't scream abuse at blacks in public but privately have another view is not unrealistic. He would have made his comments from observations of the many people he mixes with: NBA managers, players, supporters, friends whoever. There is nothing unusual in such behavior.

I offered a practical example of how Aussie Rules sport has evolved in its treatment of indigenous players. Again there is nothing controversial about these facts. Any investigations into public and private behavior of footballers will demonstrate this reality. There are past players who will acknowledge, with shame, that they abused black players all the time when they ere on the field.

But the critical point I made and which Kove was trying to make was "When will white people stand up and call out racist abuse ?" I suggest that this type of remonstration has now started to happen. Clubs are prepared to ban their own supporters who heap ugly racist abuse on indigenous players.

Of course there is push back. We still have the cries of "Political correctness gone mad" " For Christs sake it was just a joke !" or "Bloody sanctamomious wusses.." Yep. Heard them all.

But until today I hadn't heard I was a sheep mindlessly following an evil something... Always a first time and it often seems to happen on ASF.

 

[Knobby22]

Don't worry Basilio, Sdajji pretty much calls the whole world as well as many individuals on this site sheep, which is quite ironic as its obvious that he is the one easily led.

 

[Sdajii]

Did you actually read the whole story Sdajii ? It probably doesn't matter . You seem quite determined to condemn Kove and I to the fires of eternal damnation for daring to suggest there is racism, overt and covert in the US and also Australia

You destroy your own credibility with anyone of moderate intelligence more more by using that obvious a strawman. I never did such things.

Koves comments about people who don't scream abuse at blacks in public but privately have another view is not unrealistic. He would have made his comments from observations of the many people he mixes with: NBA managers, players, supporters, friends whoever. There is nothing unusual in such behavior.

I am not denying such things exist. Of course they do. But to scaremonger and encourage people to see that in all people who act like good people is a terrible thing to do.

I offered a practical example of how Aussie Rules sport has evolved in its treatment of indigenous players. Again there is nothing controversial about these facts. Any investigations into public and private behavior of footballers will demonstrate this reality. There are past players who will acknowledge, with shame, that they abused black players all the time when they ere on the field.

So?

But the critical point I made and which Kove was trying to make was "When will white people stand up and call out racist abuse ?" I suggest that this type of remonstration has now started to happen. Clubs are prepared to ban their own supporters who heap ugly racist abuse on indigenous players.

This already happens, constantly, to an extreme extent, to the point where people are seeing racism almost literally everywhere, where almost literally everything is considered racist, where racism is seen so ubiquitously that the term is becoming almost meaningless. To the point where white people are considered racist for literally doing nothing and where in many cases you can be as racist as you like to white people with complete impunity and the white person must accept it or themselves be considered racist. Where we see black police shooting black criminals in cases where it's clearly necessary, and the (predominantly white) media telling everyone it was a white policeman shooting an innocent black man. Where despite this, white people like you still ask this question as though it's not happening. To the point where 'affirmative action' is absolutely extreme. To the point where the pendulum has swung to the opposite to a ridiculous extent. Where we turn a blind eye to a black national government slaughtering and stealing the land of white people. To the extent that current day European governments vote to try to pay repatriations to those they conquered generations ago despite no other race in the world doing this. The answer to your question of "When?" is "Some time before now!"

But until today I hadn't heard I was a sheep mindlessly following an evil something...

Always a first time and it often seems to happen on ASF.

Well, today you've been told, and it's sad that you still can't see it.

Accusing innocent people of being guilty, or making people paranoid, is not the way forward towards the goal of everyone getting along well.

 

[moXJO]

I'm not sure why people think this is a western only problem.
The majority of countries I have visited have huge amounts of racism, even NZ.
Some Thais I know didn't know what racism was as they were all surrounded by other Thais. But even they have formed opinions of other races. Same with Chinese, Indian the list goes on.

In Australia I have found it to have jumped to the better by a huge margin (since the early 80s).

It has probably been the last decade where it feels slightly disjointed again. But we are leap years ahead of others.

 

[Sdajii]

I'm not sure why people think this is a western only problem.
The majority of countries I have visited have huge amounts of racism, even NZ.
Some Thais I know didn't know what racism was as they were all surrounded by other Thais. But even they have formed opinions of other races. Same with Chinese, Indian the list goes on.

Are you serious?

I was in Bangkok about a month ago, and Indian at the place I was staying was ripping off other hotel guests, refusing to pay for his room, and registered the web address of the hotel name (I was astonished the owners hadn't already done it). The police were called in to deal with it, I speak some Thai and they asked me to translate and also offer some legal advice (I am not a lawyer or anything resembling one, Thailand is just a really bizarre place sometimes). While we were at it, the owners said (at first in Thai and then in English so the Indian could understand) that Thais have a saying: "If you find an Indian and a snake in your home, kill the Indian first". The police laughed and agreed. Understandably the Indian protested and cried racism, but Thais are pretty much universally racist against Indians because Indians are so prone to trying to rip Thai people off. Thai people are pretty much all racist against Chinese, Africans and others. Racism is almost literally a part of the national policy in relation to the people of the east (this land was conquered by Thailand, the people are not ethnically Thai and don't have the same language or culture, and official policy keeps them as underclass. It was previously direct government policy and it is now just blatant but not officially racist). I don't know where you found Thai people who don't know what racism is, but if they do exist I'm impressed you found them. Thai culture is extremely polite, to the point of lying to save face of yourself or the person your talking to being the norm, so quite likely you spoke to Thai people who just pretended that racism was an alien concept because they thought it's what you wanted to hear or would respect. I've spent the majority of the last 5 years in Asia and in every country I've been to racism is openly accepted as normal by most people.

The west is the only place where racism is such a taboo. The west is just about the only place where you'll find people feeling bad about being racist (and apparently only white people can be racist, etc etc). White people are possibly the least racist people in the world, certainly among the least, and have the largest taboo on racism, almost being unique in having a taboo at all. Interestingly, 5 years ago Asians heavily looked up to white people, but that is rapidly disappearing. Apparently if a race continually berates itself and indulges in self loathing and insult, other people figure they must be as bad as they say they are.

 

[moXJO]

Are you serious?

I was in Bangkok about a month ago, and Indian at the place I was staying was ripping off other hotel guests, refusing to pay for his room, and registered the web address of the hotel name (I was astonished the owners hadn't already done it). The police were called in to deal with it, I speak some Thai and they asked me to translate and also offer some legal advice (I am not a lawyer or anything resembling one, Thailand is just a really bizarre place sometimes). While we were at it, the owners said (at first in Thai and then in English so the Indian could understand) that Thais have a saying: "If you find an Indian and a snake in your home, kill the Indian first". The police laughed and agreed. Understandably the Indian protested and cried racism, but Thais are pretty much universally racist against Indians because Indians are so prone to trying to rip Thai people off. Thai people are pretty much all racist against Chinese, Africans and others. Racism is almost literally a part of the national policy in relation to the people of the east (this land was conquered by Thailand, the people are not ethnically Thai and don't have the same language or culture, and official policy keeps them as underclass. It was previously direct government policy and it is now just blatant but not officially racist). I don't know where you found Thai people who don't know what racism is, but if they do exist I'm impressed you found them. Thai culture is extremely polite, to the point of lying to save face of yourself or the person your talking to being the norm, so quite likely you spoke to Thai people who just pretended that racism was an alien concept because they thought it's what you wanted to hear or would respect. I've spent the majority of the last 5 years in Asia and in every country I've been to racism is openly accepted as normal by most people.

The west is the only place where racism is such a taboo. The west is just about the only place where you'll find people feeling bad about being racist (and apparently only white people can be racist, etc etc). White people are possibly the least racist people in the world, certainly among the least, and have the largest taboo on racism, almost being unique in having a taboo at all. Interestingly, 5 years ago Asians heavily looked up to white people, but that is rapidly disappearing. Apparently if a race continually berates itself and indulges in self loathing and insult, other people figure they must be as bad as they say they are.

Lampang, out country. In the cities they hate a few races. They just think its normal.Indians are well hated there.

The reason being that there were no other races they had seen in the area. Only all thais. As soon as they came into contact with other races they instantly understood racism. Indians and Chinese were top of the list.

 

[Sdajii]

Lampang, out country. In the cities they hate a few races. They just think its normal.Indians are well hated there.

The reason being that there were no other races they had seen in the area. Only all thais. As soon as they came into contact with other races they instantly understood racism. Indians and Chinese were top of the list.

Most people in Lampang are not Thai (obviously they are Thai by nationality but not ethnicity/race or culture). That region of Thailand is pretty multiracial, and Thais are a minority there. As an example, Hmong are pretty common out in that region. Ask the locals what they think about the Hmong race (if you can get an honest answer). I've never found any racial group in the same region as Hmong which didn't overall have an unfavourable view of the Hmong. Even the Hmong I've spoken to don't seem happy about being Hmong. In remote areas where everyone is local (they may be multiracial areas but all of them have been there for many generations), where it is rare to see white people and everyone runs outside to see me, the locals warn me to beware of the Hmong and clearly don't trust them.

I haven't been to Lampang, and maybe it's an anomalous community, I'm not saying you didn't encounter this, but Thais (or Asians) without racism are very rare. Actually, people without racism are pretty rare other than among white people.

Humans are born with an inherent disposition towards racism (even animals are). Political correctness denies it, but reality confirms it.

 

[moXJO]

I haven't been to Lampang, and maybe it's an anomalous community, I'm not saying you didn't encounter this, but Thais (or Asians) without racism are very rare. Actually, people without racism are pretty rare other than among white people.

No they were racist and more patriotic then the yanks. They just hadn't met any other races outside of their communities. Thus were unaware of what racism was. Social media is changing that though, as these poorer areas have Internet now. That video of the chinese tourist taking a dump at the thai temple sure as hell didn't help.


They didn't understand what racism was till they traveled out of the area (its mostly farming in this spot). They were just not exposed enough to other races to form opinions.

Thais love their country more then any other place I've been.
Some of the nicest people on the planet there as well. Makes up for the scammers in the cities. I'll take some photos next time I'm passing through.

Thailand is just a really bizarre place sometimes

Yeah the gik bashings are crazy stuff. Interesting place.

 

[Sdajii]

No they were racist and more patriotic then the yanks. They just hadn't met any other races outside of their communities. Thus were unaware of what racism was. Social media is changing that though, as these poorer areas have Internet now. That video of the chinese tourist taking a dump at the thai temple sure as hell didn't help.


They didn't understand what racism was till they traveled out of the area (its mostly farming in this spot). They were just not exposed enough to other races to form opinions.

Thais love their country more then any other place I've been.
Some of the nicest people on the planet there as well. Makes up for the scammers in the cities. I'll take some photos next time I'm passing through.

You might be mixing up race and nationality? That area is quite multiethnic. There are multiple races in China for example, and the Chinese are racist against Chinese of other races.

As a nationality, yes, Thais are quite patriotic to the country of Thailand, but most Thai (nationality) people are not Thai (race/culture). Even in a small farming area in that region, they'll definitely be aware of the Hmong and will dislike them (unless you were dealing with people who are Hmong, in which case they will be aware that the others don't like them). All of the many races in Thailand are still Thai by nationality and most are pretty patriotic, but still racist against each other.

As I said, I don't know about the specific place you went to and maybe it's an unusual exception, but I've been to all regions of Thailand and most provinces, and if you've found people unaware of there being multiple races it's extremely unusual. Not saying it doesn't exist in Thailand but I've never seen or heard of it. The people in that region only a few generations are weren't part of the same kingdom, race or culture as Thais (like, the race/culture/'national' identity of the people in 'Bangkok' was not the same). The whole area which is now Thailand wasn't even a united country until fairly recently, it was made up of many seperate kingdoms/empires, each racially different, they all had wars with each other, they all had separate identities, they don't identify as the same race as the original race in Bangkok (ie where Bangkok now is, which of course Thai people don't even call Bangkok today), although the Thai (nationality) people in Bangkok have recently become very ethnically diverse. When I first came to Bangkok years ago I couldn't tell the difference between all the different races but now within what used to just look like Thai people to me I can see many different races. It's funny, when I was first in Thailand I didn't even generally notice the difference between Thais (the race native to the Siam region), Chinese, Burmese, Khmer (Cambodians) etc, and now they look completely different. Thai (nationality) people are much better at it than I am or ever will be.

 

[wayneL]

Being a keen proponent of judging individuals on the qualities of personality etc, this thread has made me that work closely interactions between the races in my area which happens to be quite multi-racial and multicultural ( and yes there is an important Distinction there).

In the last 10 years I can only remember one incident which could potentially have being viewed as racist, though no actual racist comments were made. It was simply a white man abusing a brown man but I suspect that race actually had nothing, or very little to do with it.

I just don't see racism happening. What I do see is very Working Class men pretty much treating our brown and black friends how they find them, if they are polite then our bogun friends treat these people with the normal respect accorded to anyone irrespective of their race.

I know the OP was regarding the United States, but as far as Australia is concerned I just don't see any real racism, anywhere.

 

[Sdajii]

Being a keen proponent of judging individuals on the qualities of personality etc, this thread has made me that work closely interactions between the races in my area which happens to be quite multi-racial and multicultural ( and yes there is an important Distinction there).

In the last 10 years I can only remember one incident which could potentially have being viewed as racist, though no actual racist comments were made. It was simply a white man abusing a brown man but I suspect that race actually had nothing, or very little to do with it.

I just don't see racism happening. What I do see is very Working Class men pretty much treating our brown and black friends how they find them, if they are polite then our bogun friends treat these people with the normal respect accorded to anyone irrespective of their race.

I know the OP was regarding the United States, but as far as Australia is concerned I just don't see any real racism, anywhere.

Depends where you go in Australia. Up north you find a lot of racism. I don't like it but I can totally understand it. If one race is very prone to shoplifting, violence, vandalism, defecating in public, rape, drug abuse etc etc, it is not surprising if the other main racial group becomes racist towards them. Unfortunately that will generally include making assumptions about all individuals of that race including the minority of that race in that area which does none of these things if such a minority exists.

If the majority of individuals of any category of thing are better or worse than average, it is only natural that people will make assumptions. If I find that most red apples have worms in them and most green apples don't, I'm going to start choosing the green apples and assuming red apples have worms in them, including the ones which don't. If most people who wear green hats are nice to you and most people with pink hats beat you up and steal your wallet, you're going to start liking people who wear green hats and disliking people who wear pink hats.

Tangible, real differences between demographics of people including race do exist, and people respond accordingly. Political correctness contradicts reality by telling us that these differences do not exist and that if we act like they do we are bad.

Having said that, I firmly believe in doing our best to judge all humans as individuals and treat them accordingly. Having said that, I realise sometimes it is impossible or dangerous. People are having difficulty reconciling reality and practicality with political correctness.

 

[wayneL]

Totally acknowledging your point @Sdajii

As politically uncomfortable as that point is, the harsh reality is thus.

 

[moXJO]

You might be mixing up race and nationality? That area is quite multiethnic. There are multiple races in China for example, and the Chinese are racist against Chinese of other races.

As a nationality, yes, Thais are quite patriotic to the country of Thailand, but most Thai (nationality) people are not Thai (race/culture). Even in a small farming area in that region, they'll definitely be aware of the Hmong and will dislike them (unless you were dealing with people who are Hmong, in which case they will be aware that the others don't like them). All of the many races in Thailand are still Thai by nationality and most are pretty patriotic, but still racist against each other.

As I said, I don't know about the specific place you went to and maybe it's an unusual exception, but I've been to all regions of Thailand and most provinces, and if you've found people unaware of there being multiple races it's extremely unusual. Not saying it doesn't exist in Thailand but I've never seen or heard of it. The people in that region only a few generations are weren't part of the same kingdom, race or culture as Thais (like, the race/culture/'national' identity of the people in 'Bangkok' was not the same). The whole area which is now Thailand wasn't even a united country until fairly recently, it was made up of many seperate kingdoms/empires, each racially different, they all had wars with each other, they all had separate identities, they don't identify as the same race as the original race in Bangkok (ie where Bangkok now is, which of course Thai people don't even call Bangkok today), although the Thai (nationality) people in Bangkok have recently become very ethnically diverse. When I first came to Bangkok years ago I couldn't tell the difference between all the different races but now within what used to just look like Thai people to me I can see many different races. It's funny, when I was first in Thailand I didn't even generally notice the difference between Thais (the race native to the Siam region), Chinese, Burmese, Khmer (Cambodians) etc, and now they look completely different. Thai (nationality) people are much better at it than I am or ever will be.

They were all thai. They didn't have a problem with Hmong when I asked and are aware of them. They said "they have to survive" and viewed them as needing help.
I might try and get up to the mountains to see as I was offered a trip up there near chang rai.

I think we're crossing lines here. They are aware of other races. They know there are other races in Thailand. But they haven't formed racist opinions till they hit the cities. They haven't met any other races. Its thais in their area.
I just asked a few minutes ago if they had chinese, Indians, Hmong etc and they said no.

Know any good kickboxing camps in your travels?

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

I worked in the states over 40 years ago as a laborer and anything I could get my hands on to make a dollar, busboy, old age care, mental health care, vehicle repossession and night club "accessibility".

It was racist then and I do not need to go back to prove it is still racist. I read it is.

I worked in Atlanta, Georgia for five months then moved to Birmingham, Alabama and then on to San Fran via delivering a repossessed car to Fresno.

Most of my friends were working class whites or blacks.

It's a very, very complex situation. Some of my best friends were racist whites and some of my best friends were ex WW2 black soldiers who had to work in construction battalions because they were black, and other blacks.

Many chocolate left and right wing commentating media soldiers think they have the cause and the answer.

They don't.

gg

ps Vehicle repossession in the Southern states of the USA is one of the most exciting jobs one can do outside of active service in the military. Night club bouncing is very boring.

 

[Sdajii]

They were all thai. They didn't have a problem with Hmong when I asked and are aware of them. They said "they have to survive" and viewed them as needing help.
I might try and get up to the mountains to see as I was offered a trip up there near chang rai.

I think we're crossing lines here. They are aware of other races. They know there are other races in Thailand. But they haven't formed racist opinions till they hit the cities. They haven't met any other races. Its thais in their area.
I just asked a few minutes ago if they had chinese, Indians, Hmong etc and they said no.

Know any good kickboxing camps in your travels?

Sounds like a very small community you're talking about. Odd if they're ethnic Thai up there. They wouldn't be likely to have Chinese or Indians there, but if they have no Hmong it must be a small place/community. If you're talking about one small little community then yeah, they might be of pure ethnic background (as another example, you get Hmong villages which are all Hmong too). As you say, the larger the place and the more exposure people have to different races, the more racist they become. Even in villages of a few hundred people I find they're familiar with other races and generally have racial preferences. Fondness for white people is noticeably dropping. They still usually have a favourable attitude to white people (sometimes of course, especially in tourist areas, they just look through predatory eyes and try to extract money from them, often unethically, and some of them consider white people to be rude, selfish, vulgar and other negative things).

I've met a few Thai and foreign kickboxers but it's not really something I'm interested in and I haven't been to any of the camps. Occasionally someone shows me pictures of them, I've never been to one. I'm not really sure but I think there are some up in the north west aimed at foreigners.

 

[moXJO]

. Fondness for white people is noticeably dropping. They still usually have a favourable attitude to white people (sometimes of course, especially in tourist areas, they just look through predatory eyes and try to extract money from them, often unethically, and some of them consider white people to be rude, selfish, vulgar and other negative things).

This is where I find it works in reverse. Thais that haven't met white people are sold on the Hollywood/ads bs portrayals of glamorous whites. Most in Australia ended up disliking white women from the way they treat them. The illusion soon shatters.

Any good resources on picking up the language?
They have some very good quality building goods over there that I wouldn't mind importing. Be good to get a bit more of the lingo

 

[Sdajii]

This is where I find it works in reverse. Thais that haven't met white people are sold on the Hollywood/ads bs portrayals of glamorous whites. Most in Australia ended up disliking white women from the way they treat them. The illusion soon shatters.

Any good resources on picking up the language?
They have some very good quality building goods over there that I wouldn't mind importing. Be good to get a bit more of the lingo

Yeah, I've had people ask me if I have a six pack, assuming I probably do (obviously ones who haven't had much to do with white people, especially up close and personal). I'm not fat or anything, but I wouldn't have thought anyone would look at me with a shirt on and wonder if I have a six pack, haha. The western media they get exposed to definitely gives them a glorified impression of the west/white people. However, in recent years the western media is full of white people self loathing and self demonising, and not surprisingly, they are starting to think white people are bad or flawed (heck, half of all white people seem to think that now). Haha, yeah, everyone is starting to dislike white women! As a white person who grew up in Australia (although a lot of that time I was in a middle eastern community, but they were all so segregated, I never saw any of them marry or get involved with any white or Australian born people) I always figured I would end up with a white wife and never had an interest in Asian women, and when I first came to Asia I didn't find them visually attractive, but within a year I had lost interest in white women and now a few years later can't imagine having a white girlfriend or wife.

I haven't studied the language, I don't find people learn languages in a classroom. I just talk to people and pick it up as I go. Probably some classroom study along with talking to people would have helped. I've picked up more than most people do in the same amount of time (I've spent a total of about 2.5 years in Thailand) but I'm still only barely conversational. It's a difficult and to be honest extremely bad language. If it was German or Spanish or something I'd be fluent by now. Like any language, the best way to learn is just to talk to people.

 

[moXJO]

It's a difficult and to be honest extremely bad language. If it was German or Spanish or something I'd be fluent by now. Like any language, the best way to learn is just to talk to people.

Yeah I agree. Tonality of some of the words gets me in trouble. "Mother" and "horse" is just way too close for my liking.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Yeah I agree. Tonality of some of the words gets me in trouble. "Mother" and "horse" is just way too close for my liking.

I cannot see where I have said what you quote I have said moXJO. Perhaps it's from another thread ??

gg

 

[moXJO]

Sorry gg that was suppose to be sdajii