The Pope's Encyclical

[Value Collector]

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There is this almost glib argument by the antichrists that Mao was raised Buddhist, Hitler was exposed to Catholicism, Stalin to Orthodox Christianity so somehow they were religious adherents and therefore heads of religious genocides. That's like saying Joe down the street was sent off to Sunday school and therefore he's whatever. If that was the yardstick we wouldn't have any atheists or agnostics to speak of in the country and we wouldn't have dwindling church numbers... perhaps there is some kind of formal renunciation process that is required to lose the tribal colours?

Your twisting things there. I am not concerned about what people were. I am concern with what were the beliefs that informed their actions, and where did these beliefs arise.

As I said, when I say religion has caused people to kill others, I am not talking about a Christian that flips out and ends up killing some one in a road rage incident or some other domestic dispute.

No doubt both Christians and atheists have killed people before, the difference is some of the Christians that have killed have done it in the name of and because of their faith in their religious texts.

No atheist has ever killed simply because they don't believe in a god, they have to have some other belief or motive on top of that. you can't use the simple lack of belief in a god to justify you killing some one, you can use belief in a god though, especially if you believe that god wrote a book instructing you to kill and you think he speaks to you in your private thoughts.

 

[Value Collector]

You can nitpick all you like but the fact is that religions have been persecuted by atheist regimes; eg the Chinese Communists. Whether you choose to constrain the debate to the "for the sole reason of atheism" argument is irrelevant. .

It is not nit picking,

If you are going to blame Atheism, then you have to show that Atheism was the cause.

All sorts of people don't believe in gods.

Just as very few religious people these days would not approve of some acts that their religions have done in the past, so all atheists should condemn the persecution of religions, not give offhand condonement

Atheism is not a group that atheists belong to, Atheism is not like Catholicism.

An atheist doesn't need to apologise for the actions of other atheists anymore that a red head needs to apologise for the actions of other unrelated red heads.

How ever, if you are going to voluntarily join an organisation that has committed crimes you should lower your head a bit in shame when thinking about the past of that organisation, not gloss over it and try and paint it as a force for good.

I would be apologetic for the acts committed by Stalin if I was a member of a communist party with links to him, but not simply because we both shared a view that their was no gods.

Tink saying the catholic church is a force for good, would be like me saying communism is a force for good.

Me simply not believing a god exists, is not the same as me saying communism is a force for good, My lack of belief in a god has nothing to do with Stalins communist regime.

I know you believe in a deist style of god, So I don't put you in the same category as Tink, you don't have to lower your head in shame at the churches history as Tink does. Tink accepts a whole lot of doctrine which you do not, and tink supports an organisation which you do not. You simply having an opinion that a god exists won't lead you to do harm, unless you develop all sorts of other beliefs based on that opinion that transform that simple opinion into a religion, but at that point it becomes the religion that's the problem, not the simple belief or disbelief in a god.

 

[SirRumpole]

If you are going to blame Atheism, then you have to show that Atheism was the cause.

So in the case of Mao persecuting religious people and the current Chinese government persecuting Buddhists and the Falung Gong, what other motivation would you suggest ?

 

[Tisme]

It is not nit picking,

If you are going to blame Atheism, then you have to show that Atheism was the cause.

All sorts of people don't believe in gods.



Atheism is not a group that atheists belong to, Atheism is not like Catholicism.

An atheist doesn't need to apologise for the actions of other atheists anymore that a red head needs to apologise for the actions of other unrelated red heads.

How ever, if you are going to voluntarily join an organisation that has committed crimes you should lower your head a bit in shame when thinking about the past of that organisation, not gloss over it and try and paint it as a force for good.

I would be apologetic for the acts committed by Stalin if I was a member of a communist party with links to him, but not simply because we both shared a view that their was no gods.

Tink saying the catholic church is a force for good, would be like me saying communism is a force for good.

Me simply not believing a god exists, is not the same as me saying communism is a force for good, My lack of belief in a god has nothing to do with Stalins communist regime.

I know you believe in a deist style of god, So I don't put you in the same category as Tink, you don't have to lower your head in shame at the churches history as Tink does. Tink accepts a whole lot of doctrine which you do not, and tink supports an organisation which you do not. You simply having an opinion that a god exists won't lead you to do harm, unless you develop all sorts of other beliefs based on that opinion that transform that simple opinion into a religion, but at that point it becomes the religion that's the problem, not the simple belief or disbelief in a god.

Isn't that cherry picking? I choose to live in Australia, even though crimes are committed everyday. Should I hang my head in shame and give up my belief that Australia is mostly a decent play to live?

Rumpole, a few other QANDA members (ardent Liberals, Labs and Greens and me) actually galvanised our theist selves into a church. I am having trouble remembering what that church was .....Rumpole?

 

[SirRumpole]

Isn't that cherry picking? I choose to live in Australia, even though crimes are committed everyday. Should I hang my head in shame and give up my belief that Australia is mostly a decent play to live?

Rumpole, a few other QANDA members (ardent Liberals, Labs and Greens and me) actually galvanised our theist selves into a church. I am having trouble remembering what that church was .....Rumpole?

Search me.. The Holy Order of the One Legged Donkey for all I know

 

[Tisme]

Search me.. The Holy Order of the One Legged Donkey for all I know

It was something like that. Ah how well I remember the services ....not. The warmth from what's his name our spiritual deity.... we dare not speak his name because we didn't bother making one up.

I think we should issue an encyclical to our followers about climate change and the need for raincoats at weekend sports.

 

[SirRumpole]

It was something like that. Ah how well I remember the services ....not. The warmth from what's his name our spiritual deity.... we dare not speak his name because we didn't bother making one up.

I think we should issue an encyclical to our followers about climate change and the need for raincoats at weekend sports.

The warmth would have come from spirits all right, but not supernatural ones.

:alcohol:

 

[Value Collector]

So in the case of Mao persecuting religious people and the current Chinese government persecuting Buddhists and the Falung Gong, what other motivation would you suggest ?

I will answer this over in the religion thread.

 

[Tisme]

The warmth would have come from spirits all right, but not supernatural ones.

:alcohol:

I'm wondering if Dr Smith is DrRad? Tink is Tez/or Tes and Jackmed is a Noco bizzaro Who is Rob1966 I wonder ........ oh doh

 

[Value Collector]

I choose to live in Australia, even though crimes are committed everyday. Should I hang my head in shame and give up my belief that Australia is mostly a decent play to live?

I don't put blanket blame on the Russian people for the acts of Stalins communist party, I blame the members of the communist party and their doctrines, and if you want to be part of a communist party in Russia today that is associated with Stalins doctrines, you should be ashamed of the organisations past.

I don't put blanket blame on the Italian people for the acts of the catholic church, I blame the members of the church and their doctrines, and if you want to be part of the catholic church today that is associated with the evil doctrines, you should be ashamed of the organisations past and current bad behaviour.

If the Australian government was actively persecuting and executing people, then I would expect you to speak out against it, and if Australia had a history of doing this over 100's of years then when we look into the past we should be able to openly admit that the behaviour of the organisation has been shameful, and we shouldn't gloss over it, we should own it for what it is and fight to change it, because a nation state is probably worth saving, a morally bankrupt church is not worth saving in my opinion though.

I would be distancing myself from any organisation that was morally bankrupt, not making up excuses for them.

 

[Tisme]

If the Australian government was actively persecuting and executing people, then I would expect you to speak out against it,

I'm starting to wonder how far the current mob will go. The state level experiment with Newman was a taste of totalitarian politics, almost jackboot diplomacy and now the Feds are fiddling with citizenship acts that have never had to be used even when the place was being over run by reds under the beds and the DLP catholic hordes when the WW2 was still fresh.

What special talents did those post war PMs have that we lack today?

 

[luutzu]

I'm starting to wonder how far the current mob will go. The state level experiment with Newman was a taste of totalitarian politics, almost jackboot diplomacy and now the Feds are fiddling with citizenship acts that have never had to be used even when the place was being over run by reds under the beds and the DLP catholic hordes when the WW2 was still fresh.

What special talents did those post war PMs have that we lack today?

Common sense? And maybe a belief that the people actually matter?

I like how they say citizenship is an honour, a privilege (a gift from God if you follow Abbott's other line of reasoning)... It is so special that we ought to give a couple of politicians the right to remove it as they pleased - what good is a Judge and a court and all that judgment of peers stuff?

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