The Wasteful Liberals

[sydboy007]

Labor have been in power now for 5 years and the last 18 months have had a friendly senate - they have had a pretty easy ride to get legislation through both houses.

Why haven't labor changed this?

All they have done is reduce the baby bonus from $5000 to $3000 after baby 1. Still for unlimited children and I agree with you that it does encourage the "mentality that the Govt will support me as i pop them out". It seems labor has supported this seeming "waste".

And those popping the most out are probably those who are already on welfare and don't contribute tax anyway. Not like the middle class who ARE paying tax and those with families get a little bit extra back. Very different scenarios, imo.

And agree that we should be encouraging skilled people to this country rather than taking in boat loads of wealthy people (who have money to pay smugglers) and encouraging those who can least afford it to have multiple children. In both cases it can lead to a life time drain on the welfare system for years ahead.

Did you hear the hysteria from the LNP with the baby bonus changes? The veiled "barren" PM who has no idea about how hard it is to raise a family.

Once you bring in a welfare payment, the vested interests will be screaming all the way to today tonight to try and stop it being removed / reduced.

Give me a political leader who will:

* examine the entire tax base of Australia and get rid of inefficient taxes like stamp duty and replace them with far less economically destructive taxes ie broaden the GST base

* who will make a blood oath / core promise that if they hold an inquiry that they will implement all it's recommendations OR spend the time to say why they will ignore most of them.

* will focus on the tax payers who experience the largest level of churn and work out how to just tax less and stop the churn.

* who will tell the voters that the Government is here to help ONLY when you have done all you can and really need it. The idea of I pay my taxes and i deserve something back mentality needs to be eradicated. Personal responsibility comes before a tax payer funded handout!

 

[IFocus]

If I'm not mistaken, he did "sweeten" the deal significantly. Also I think many people still held that against him when he ultimately lost office.

Howard had to narrow the base to get it over the line, today's and future governments are now stuck with a declining tax revenue base (as a % of GDP).

The chances of changing the GST base for now and pretty much forever = 0 IMHO

Throw in tax cuts to the middle class and all of a sudden Costello and Howard are geniuses.

As Keating said they were just a couple of mugs who got lucky.

 

[moXJO]

Took a while but knew you would catch on eventually

BTW WA election is looking far closer than I expected, I like Barney 1st Liberal ever to spend on infrastructure even the chair sniffer is OK when sober but where are the rest of the dimwits in the Liberal party?

Nsw libs have been very slow out of the gate and have had to cut some deals I'm dead against. I suppose you could say they have been stable compared to the mess we have had prior. Not sure I warmed to Barry O that much

 

[sydboy007]

Nsw libs have been very slow out of the gate and have had to cut some deals I'm dead against. I suppose you could say they have been stable compared to the mess we have had prior. Not sure I warmed to Barry O that much

Barry lost me with his ideas of CBD bus tunnels and his hypocrisy over electricity assets. As for his deals with the shooters party, i shake my head at the utter madness of it all.

The sad fact is these days no one in politics is really in it to server the people. They will fight tooth and nail against economically rational decisions just so they can improve their chances to get their flabby butts onto the treasury benches.

I long for the day when an a political leader acknowledges the merits of ideas generated by the other side of politics, and is willing to modify their own policy with these ideas to make theirs better.

We all despise the boss / team leader at work who wont accept or acknowledge a better idea. Why do we reward politicians who do the same?

 

[sails]

Did you hear the hysteria from the LNP with the baby bonus changes? The veiled "barren" PM who has no idea about how hard it is to raise a family...

Oh come on, please spare us the nonsense. Labor not only went against the libs with carbon tax, but also polling at the time showed they went against the wishes of the majority. Labor don't care what the libs OR the people want.

Sorry, that sort of excuse doesn't wash. Gillard has effectively had control of both houses and she legislates mostly whatever she wants without the help of the libs.

Rubbish.

 

[white_goodman]

Wow! Very insightful. Since you put in quotes, I am assuming you are quoting someone. How is that quote attributed to?

its often attributed to Toqueville but its actually from Elmer Peterson a nobody, so its good in a sense that its been wrongly given to Toqueville

 

[FlyingFox]

Did you hear the hysteria from the LNP with the baby bonus changes? The veiled "barren" PM who has no idea about how hard it is to raise a family.

Once you bring in a welfare payment, the vested interests will be screaming all the way to today tonight to try and stop it being removed / reduced.

Give me a political leader who will:

* examine the entire tax base of Australia and get rid of inefficient taxes like stamp duty and replace them with far less economically destructive taxes ie broaden the GST base

* who will make a blood oath / core promise that if they hold an inquiry that they will implement all it's recommendations OR spend the time to say why they will ignore most of them.

* will focus on the tax payers who experience the largest level of churn and work out how to just tax less and stop the churn.

* who will tell the voters that the Government is here to help ONLY when you have done all you can and really need it. The idea of I pay my taxes and i deserve something back mentality needs to be eradicated. Personal responsibility comes before a tax payer funded handout!

Not going to happen because they know they will be out the door at the next election. Remember the majority of the voters are not like the people that are in this forum.

 

[drsmith]

Took a while but knew you would catch on eventually

BTW WA election is looking far closer than I expected, I like Barney 1st Liberal ever to spend on infrastructure even the chair sniffer is OK when sober but where are the rest of the dimwits in the Liberal party?

Only I don't get the foreshore development?

You like Emperor Barnett ??

Either they must really be in trouble or you have become so depressed with the federal Labor scene that you are simply looking for escape.

There's no escape. Your beloved Federal Labor is going to get the pounding it deserves, even if they do beat themselves to a pulp beforehand over the leadership, again.

 

[sydboy007]

Oh come on, please spare us the nonsense. Labor not only went against the libs with carbon tax, but also polling at the time showed they went against the wishes of the majority. Labor don't care what the libs OR the people want.

Sorry, that sort of excuse doesn't wash. Gillard has effectively had control of both houses and she legislates mostly whatever she wants without the help of the libs.

Rubbish.

My point was that making an economically rational decision was bashed by the party a lot of members in this forum hold up as being the most economically responsible.

Doesn't matter if Labor required their help to make the changes, the fact is they chose populism over good economics. yes yes, both sides do it, but it DOESN'T make it right and I'm bloody sick of it.

TBH the only way I see a winding back of the nanny state is a good recession. Seems that is the only way to push through with the reforms required. Just a shame we will have to destroy so many lives to do it. personally I'd prefer to see less populism and more rational debate over economic policy, but it ain't gonna happen in my life time.

 

[drsmith]

The only way I see a winding back of the nanny state is a good recession. Seems that is the only way to push through with the reforms required. Just a shame we will have to destroy so many lives to do it.

That's more the Labor way than it is the Coalitions.

 

[sptrawler]

Howard had to narrow the base to get it over the line, today's and future governments are now stuck with a declining tax revenue base (as a % of GDP).

The chances of changing the GST base for now and pretty much forever = 0 IMHO

Throw in tax cuts to the middle class and all of a sudden Costello and Howard are geniuses.

As Keating said they were just a couple of mugs who got lucky.

So what does that make Gillard and Swan a couple of mugs who didn't get over the line.

By the way I think your right about the W.A election, labor look a lot smater with Ripper gone.

 

[McLovin]

Labor have been in power now for 5 years and the last 18 months have had a friendly senate - they have had a pretty easy ride to get legislation through both houses.

Why haven't labor changed this?

Because, like I said, and you got your knickers in a knot over, the ALP and the Libs have much more in common than die-hards on either side would like to believe. Both parties love largesse. Once you give someone something you can't take it back. The ALP is not going to crucify itself in the mortgage belts of the capital cities by increasing the tax rate on families, neither will the Libs. It's easier to just let someone else pay.

 

[IFocus]

You like Emperor Barnett ??

I think he has been generally sensible certainly the stand-out State Premier in Australia presently and he has done it on his own, there is no one else in the lower house worth talking about other than the chair sniffer.

Either they must really be in trouble or you have become so depressed with the federal Labor scene that you are simply looking for escape.

Rather the opposite actually quite up beat I still think the election is the Coalitions to lose and with Abbott there is ever chance that could happen.

If not then Abbott will not get the massive mandate and absolutely wont get the senate.

There's no escape. Your beloved Federal Labor is going to get the pounding it deserves, even if they do beat themselves to a pulp beforehand over the leadership, again.

I don't think Labor will get pounded simply because Australia will not trust Abbott.

 

[FlyingFox]

Because, like I said, and you got your knickers in a knot over, the ALP and the Libs have much more in common than die-hards on either side would like to believe. Both parties love largesse. Once you give someone something you can't take it back. The ALP is not going to crucify itself in the mortgage belts of the capital cities by increasing the tax rate on families, neither will the Libs. It's easier to just let someone else pay.

+1

It's not only that parties love largesse, the general population loves it too. And this is happening everywhere. Anywhere austerity was or tried to be introduced in Europe the government was kicked or will be kicked. Who is elected? The party that says no to austerity. And this happened/is happening to other parts of the economy. Very few were talking about sustainability prior to the GFC. Any investment vehicle was judged on the returns of the day without recourse to future impact. Now investors are saying we should prosecute CEO's etc (and this may happen but so many have already made their money).

It is easier for someone else to pay until there is no one else to pay. Many of our financial and welfare systems (Thankfully we have super here) have been built on the idea that the next gen will pay because there will always be a bigger tax base just like the stock and property markets will always rise and rise at increasing rate. Well things have been going up up up for a long time (prior to GFC anyway) at near exponential rates. But, complementing the quote by white_goodman, I quote Edward Teller:

"The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function."

 

[IFocus]

So what does that make Gillard and Swan a couple of mugs who didn't get over the line.

Howard and Costello were around during very high world growth (hence Keating comment) Gillard and Swan have been face with a much slower world growth.

By the way I think your right about the W.A election, labor look a lot smater with Ripper gone.

Politically smarter yes, still Ripper was a good treasurer think he pretty much controlled spending quite well over all.

 

[sails]

Because, like I said, and you got your knickers in a knot over, the ALP and the Libs have much more in common than die-hards on either side would like to believe. Both parties love largesse. Once you give someone something you can't take it back. The ALP is not going to crucify itself in the mortgage belts of the capital cities by increasing the tax rate on families, neither will the Libs. It's easier to just let someone else pay.

Well why oh why do you guys keep complaining about it when labor won't fix it?

 

[McLovin]

Well why oh why do you guys keep complaining about it when labor won't fix it?

There you go again trying to pigeon hole people. This thread is about the Liberal party. The only party I have ever voted for in my life.

I explained why Labor won't fix it. Do you actually read what anyone writes or do you just reach straight for the reflexive hyperbole?

It's very strange that such a rah-rah Liberal is advocating a policy that if someone didn't know any better would assume was the work of the ALP or the Greens. Then again, that seems to be the MO of most middle class welfare recepients; "if someone else is getting my money it's 'socialism', if I'm getting it then it's fair and makes sense". Howard made them feel OK about not paying their fair share. Now they take it as a given; there's always someone else who will pay for them. Look how well that worked in Europe.

The Greens want to increase the tax rate on incomes over $1m to pay for single mothers. I assume this is a good idea in your opinion, afterall millionaires can afford to pay "a little bit more" to "help out those who need it more"?

 

[sydboy007]

Well why oh why do you guys keep complaining about it when labor won't fix it?

Why doesn't your beloved LNP fix it? Oh wait, they've helped to create the welfare monster just as much as Labor did.

Now both parties are backed into their respective corners, both knowing most of their election promises are unfundable, yet both will continue with the con job because it's in their interests.

Neither party is willing to cut back on middle class welfare because it's too easy to get people riled up over it. You blatantly ignore the populism of Abbott and his cabinet over a minimal reduction in the baby bonus. Did you agree with it's introduction? Do you agree with it the LNP policy of continuing it at the full level, or do you support Labor reducing it as they have done? Throw in Abbott's 2.5B a year parental leave policy and I just can't understand how they get away with wasting so much money.

Would the politician who said we can no longer afford middle class welfare, over staffing of Govt departments, generous super tax subsidies and all the rest without either widening the tax base, reducing deductions or cutting back on some of the spending ger kudos, or be rolled by populism?

 

[Julia]

Now both parties are backed into their respective corners, both knowing most of their election promises are unfundable, yet both will continue with the con job because it's in their interests.

And most of the electorate know this. Yet when a politician is elected on the basis of cutting out some of the waste and then actually does it, a la Campbell Newman in Qld, his popularity diminishes markedly.
There seems to be a disconnect between what the voters say they want and what they actually find acceptable in reality.

Neither party is willing to cut back on middle class welfare because it's too easy to get people riled up over it. You blatantly ignore the populism of Abbott and his cabinet over a minimal reduction in the baby bonus.

Agree that this was populism at its most blatant. Both sides indulge in this sophistry all the time.

Throw in Abbott's 2.5B a year parental leave policy and I just can't understand how they get away with wasting so much money.

Agree. Vote buying again. I suspect the maternity leave proposal, however, will lose the Libs more votes than it will gain them.

 

[McLovin]

And most of the electorate know this. Yet when a politician is elected on the basis of cutting out some of the waste and then actually does it, a la Campbell Newman in Qld, his popularity diminishes markedly.
There seems to be a disconnect between what the voters say they want and what they actually find acceptable in reality.

Budget surpluses are great, as long as I still get my money.