Your ideal society

[shag]

the birth rates of developed countries... below replacement.

The eugenics theme i find a little disturbing..

well thats good, the planet has been gossly over populated for a century. go back to the 70's even, every nice site wasnt inundated and spoilt with and by humans. this is just one minor obvious aspect of recent human over population.

back then the educated bred for replacement or less only.
quality, not quantity. if we bugger this planet, we dont deserve to inhabit another.

today at bondi, you wont be able to move for people, like summer, literally....unless the wind blows a few out to sea....

 

[bandicoot76]

here are some good quotes for people to think on:

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
― Thomas Jefferson

“My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.”
― Thomas Jefferson

“The Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.”
― Thomas Jefferson

“Those who surrender freedom for security (safety) will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
― Thomas Jefferson

“A government afraid of its citizens is a Democracy. Citizens afraid of government is tyranny!”
― Thomas Jefferson

food for thought!

 

[CanOz]

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
― Thomas Jefferson

Perhaps this has not happened to a full extent, but certainly the big banks are now Above the Law.

CanOz

 

[bandicoot76]

how did we ever let the looney-left hijack "liberalism" from truly great minds suchs as these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_liberal_theorists

(not sure what John Maynard Keynes is doing in this list though... he was hardly a libertarian thinker, a bigger statist would be hard to find!)

 

[white_goodman]

If you feel the need to ask, you probably won't like the answer:
I balance every claimed right by a commensurate responsibility. To mention just a few examples -

The right to procreate balanced by the responsibility to look after your offspring.
The right to an education by the responsibility to make an honest effort to the best of your ability.
The right to express your opinion by the responsibility to respect others' views.
The right to vote by the responsibility to defend the country and respect the constitution.
The right to be elected into any office by the acceptance of being held accountable.
The right to own property by the responsibility towards the broader community.

I know of only one Constitution (there may be many) that includes this noble tenet "Property has obligations; it must be used for the benefit of the commonwealth." But I can't say it's made a difference in the way most Fat Cats of that country keep dodging taxes, let alone support any "worthy causes" but their own greed.

you need a firmer definition of rights, you cant have a right to housing, education, healthcare... in principle you are saying you are demanding by force the fruits of the labour and effort of other people..

 

[white_goodman]

well thats good, the planet has been gossly over populated for a century. go back to the 70's even, every nice site wasnt inundated and spoilt with and by humans. this is just one minor obvious aspect of recent human over population.

back then the educated bred for replacement or less only.
quality, not quantity. if we bugger this planet, we dont deserve to inhabit another.

today at bondi, you wont be able to move for people, like summer, literally....unless the wind blows a few out to sea....

australia is overpopulated? thats interesting, you may be best to avoid fantasizing in environmental or malthusian argmageddon, just because emotional views are repeated often dont make them true. If we do become overpopulated itll be largely attributable to govt intervention, the market system wont allow for overpopulation, the economic laws of scarcity kick in very quickly, whther that be food, oil, water what have you..

 

[white_goodman]

how did we ever let the looney-left hijack "liberalism" from truly great minds suchs as these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_liberal_theorists

(not sure what John Maynard Keynes is doing in this list though... he was hardly a libertarian thinker, a bigger statist would be hard to find!)

id like to mention the left wing of politics, libertarians/classical liberals are the original left, with the aristocracy/conservatives/feudal class being the original right...

 

[white_goodman]

how did we ever let the looney-left hijack "liberalism" from truly great minds suchs as these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_liberal_theorists

(not sure what John Maynard Keynes is doing in this list though... he was hardly a libertarian thinker, a bigger statist would be hard to find!)

he shouldnt be on that list...

 

[bullet21]

how did we ever let the looney-left hijack "liberalism" from truly great minds suchs as these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_liberal_theorists

(not sure what John Maynard Keynes is doing in this list though... he was hardly a libertarian thinker, a bigger statist would be hard to find!)

Chomsky is on that list too, and he's a Syndicalist.

 

[pixel]

you need a firmer definition of rights, you cant have a right to housing, education, healthcare... in principle you are saying you are demanding by force the fruits of the labour and effort of other people..

Agree in principle;
I wasn't saying I recognise them all as rights per se, but they're claimed by many - especially on what you'd call "the original left". I believe it started in the late 1960's that the "loony fringe" claimed rights and liberties without responsibilities; today, their disciples seem to have moved mainstream with more and more well-meaning sympathetic idealists supporting the cause of minorities without practical concerns.

 

[numbercruncher]

Currency backed by gold and silver

Abolish RBA

Harsher penalties for violent crimes including reintroduction of death penalty and ban certain crimnals the right to move interstate

Reduce size of military operations in favour of much larger home defence force including coast guard

Remove cumpulsary voting

Abolish negative gearing

Make politicians business interests more transparent

Increase taxes on mega wealthy mining magnates who have permit to take Australias resources

Provide a limited amount of free energy to households ( means tested )

Devise more methods to reward savers and those who invest productive australian businesses

Make home states contribute to the cost of health care of retirees who move to another state

Make it cumpulsaryfor inmates, illegal immigrants and the unemployed to partake in community work

Designate an island where gangs may go to indulge in armed warfare instead of using our streets

Tax bad foods in favour of using that tax to subsidise healthy foods

Im sure i could dream up more

 

[wayneL]

how did we ever let the looney-left hijack "liberalism" from truly great minds suchs as these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_liberal_theorists

(not sure what John Maynard Keynes is doing in this list though... he was hardly a libertarian thinker, a bigger statist would be hard to find!)

Exactly... when did liberal = socialist?

 

[OzWaveGuy]

Looking at the comments here I'm not sure there's much agreement on what the ideal society is supposed to look like. I'm also not sure what's wrong with the current society.

The current "society" is as perfect as you'll find anywhere as it allows anyone to interact within it or outside it and to seek remedy for any injustice.

Perhaps the title of this thread should be something like "do people understand how to leverage society for the benefit of all?"

 

[sptrawler]

Currency backed by gold and silver

Abolish RBA

Harsher penalties for violent crimes including reintroduction of death penalty and ban certain crimnals the right to move interstate

Reduce size of military operations in favour of much larger home defence force including coast guard

Remove cumpulsary voting

Abolish negative gearing

Make politicians business interests more transparent

Increase taxes on mega wealthy mining magnates who have permit to take Australias resources

Provide a limited amount of free energy to households ( means tested )

Devise more methods to reward savers and those who invest productive australian businesses

Make home states contribute to the cost of health care of retirees who move to another state

Make it cumpulsaryfor inmates, illegal immigrants and the unemployed to partake in community work

Designate an island where gangs may go to indulge in armed warfare instead of using our streets

Tax bad foods in favour of using that tax to subsidise healthy foods

Im sure i could dream up more

I initially thought, this is a slice and dice post(tonque in cheek) but thought, no it's great to see someone being honest.

 

[wayneL]

Looking at the comments here I'm not sure there's much agreement on what the ideal society is supposed to look like. I'm also not sure what's wrong with the current society.

The current "society" is as perfect as you'll find anywhere as it allows anyone to interact within it or outside it and to seek remedy for any injustice.

Perhaps the title of this thread should be something like "do people understand how to leverage society for the benefit of all?"

I have an ideal society in mind, however it would require all to have ideals and experiences similar to myself.

But I have observed that some folks are most happy within the confines of an authoritarian society, while others most happy in a liberal/libertarian society.

IOW ones man's utopia is another's dystopia.

I must admit to falling on the side of the Libertarians... but with a clearly defined heirarchy of liberties. Therein lies the potential for Authoritarianism.

Therefore I question the possibility of an 'ideal' society, rather, a balanced society may be a more realistic goal.

Western liberal democracies such as Oz and NZ are generally close to this balance, however I feel the pendulum is slightly on the wrong side of authoritarianism for my liking.

Just my $0.02

 

[MrBurns]

I heard what I thought was a great question posed to an interviewee recently:
Anyone up for having a go at this, as an alternative to the ever-repetitive political commentary or the misery of the Olympics?

A society where everyone realises that our purpose here on earth is to look after each other -

Not to see how much money we can make
Not to have far more than we would ever need
Not to sit comfortably in our heated homes while the old and frail eat cat food in the cold dark because they have no money or support.
Not to allow kids to go without because their parents arent as smart or as lucky as we are.
Not to stop until everyone is looked after and has support of some kind.

 

[CanOz]

A society where everyone realises that our purpose here on earth is to look after each other -

Not to see how much money we can make
Not to have far more than we would ever need
Not to sit comfortably in our heated homes while the old and frail eat cat food in the cold dark because they have no money or support.
Not to allow kids to go without because their parents arent as smart or as lucky as we are.
Not to stop until everyone is looked after and has support of some kind.

+1

If only Mr.B...If only...

 

[wayneL]

+1

If only Mr.B...If only...

I read about it once, in the book of Acts. Cheaters got worse than today's murderers... which goes to my previous point.

 

[sptrawler]

Giving credit where credit is due.
Giving support to enable the needy to become self supporting.
Giving accolades to those who have become self supporting.
Giving assistance to those who can't become self supporting.
Giving options to those who don't want to become self supporting.

 

[Julia]

Currency backed by gold and silver

Abolish RBA

Harsher penalties for violent crimes including reintroduction of death penalty and ban certain crimnals the right to move interstate

Reduce size of military operations in favour of much larger home defence force including coast guard

Remove cumpulsary voting

Abolish negative gearing

Make politicians business interests more transparent

Increase taxes on mega wealthy mining magnates who have permit to take Australias resources

Provide a limited amount of free energy to households ( means tested )

Devise more methods to reward savers and those who invest productive australian businesses

Make home states contribute to the cost of health care of retirees who move to another state

Make it cumpulsaryfor inmates, illegal immigrants and the unemployed to partake in community work

Designate an island where gangs may go to indulge in armed warfare instead of using our streets

Tax bad foods in favour of using that tax to subsidise healthy foods

Im sure i could dream up more

Is this your own list, nc? All your own ideas?

IOW ones man's utopia is another's dystopia.

+1. Which makes the question the more interesting.

Western liberal democracies such as Oz and NZ are generally close to this balance, however I feel the pendulum is slightly on the wrong side of authoritarianism for my liking.

Yes. But perhaps this would change with a change to a liberal government?

A society where everyone realises that our purpose here on earth is to look after each other -

Not to see how much money we can make
Not to have far more than we would ever need
Not to sit comfortably in our heated homes while the old and frail eat cat food in the cold dark because they have no money or support.
Not to allow kids to go without because their parents arent as smart or as lucky as we are.
Not to stop until everyone is looked after and has support of some kind.

Great ideal. We probably come closer to this than many other countries.

Giving credit where credit is due.
Giving support to enable the needy to become self supporting.
Giving accolades to those who have become self supporting.
Giving assistance to those who can't become self supporting.
Giving options to those who don't want to become self supporting.

+1.

Recent responses are much appreciated. It's like the thoughtful ASF of many years ago.