Your ideal society

[Julia]

Get a bunch of 10 year olds and ask them to list the 5 most powerful countries in the world. Practically all of them will place Australia on the list.

Now try the same exercise with cities but change it slightly to which have the best facilities, the most opportunities etc. Unless they have travelled more than most that age, they will list their own city, or their state capital if they don't live in a city, as one of the best in the world.

Then there comes a point where you grow up and reality sets in. Australia is nowhere near the world's most powerful nation, we're not even on the list. And few would genuinely believe that any Australian city has the world's best facilities or the most opportunity(though they do have their own good points). But if you had never travelled, and had no access to outside media etc, then it's entirely possible that people would think their own country to be good in comparison to others if that's all they are told.

Interesting thought and no doubt true.
Would the same, do you think, apply to those brought up in strife-torn countries?
i.e. is the fact that that's all they have known allow them to think simply that this is how life is, especially given levels of education in such countries are likely to be less than eg Australia et al?

 

[bandicoot76]

i heard a good quote recently:

"democracy is 3 wolves and a lamb arguing about what to have for lunch, while a constitutional republic is the same situation but with a well armed lamb disputing the decision"

 

[bullet21]

While not an answer I believe this quote from A Clash of Kings is relevant and thought provoking in this context:

Riddle: "In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man with his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him slay the other two. 'Do it,' says the king, 'for I am your lawful ruler.' 'Do it,' says the priest, 'for I command you in the names of the gods.' 'Do it,' says the rich man, 'and all this gold shall be yours.' So tell me- who lives and who dies?"

Just started reading A Song of Ice and Fire. I haven't read a series that I've had to force myself to take breaks from, in a long time.

 

[prawn_86]

Just started reading A Song of Ice and Fire. I haven't read a series that I've had to force myself to take breaks from, in a long time.

Have read every book. Pure gold. You have got a lot of twists and turns to come if you have just started

 

[Ves]

Have read every book. Pure gold. You have got a lot of twists and turns to come if you have just started

I read the first 3 books (4 books in Australia if you included the 3rd being split into two) almost a decade ago now. I thought it was fantastic then as a late-teenager. He took a long time in releasing the next book so I forgot about it. Re-reading it again now, up to the 2nd part of the third book, and I think I like it even more (especially compared to the TV series which I think is very poorly paced and loses much of the subtle characterisation).

It is rare to find a book that is so ruthless in imitating life in the fact that death is our real fate, and there are no consolations. Especially not for favourite characters. He sacrifices continuity in cases (as happens in reality), but the world he creates is so all-encompassing and detailed that it doesn't matter.

sorry for the off-topic post; I think the best society that man has seen was the ending era of classical Greece (about 4th Century BC). I encourage anyone to read Kitto's fantastic book "The Greeks." A period of creation, discovery, art, architecture and philosophy that man never saw again IMO.

A preference for the ideal would be a meritocracy, with either a sole regent head or a small council. The difficulties have already been discussed.

 

[white_goodman]

Dunno if it is my ideal as it is has never been tested but i would be keen for proper democracy through the Internet where each issue is voted on or abstained from by the populous. Minimal politicians required

sounds like a disaster, mob rule.. democracy in its purest form is akin to gang rape

 

[white_goodman]

It's a nice idea. I have a few friends who dream of such a benevolent dictatorship utopia. Of course in this model society, it is always them who is the dictator.

In the real world............ I've never been there, but missus lived in Switzerland for a while and claims it is pretty close to what is achievable in real life.

a system that gives ultimate power to one and relies on picking the 'right' person is doomed to failure... the old marxism would have worked if it wasnt for stalin, fascism would have worked if it wasnt for hitler, the best generally dont rise to the top..

a system where the worst that rise to the top are in a sense coerced (by the voting public) to do the right thing would be better in a minarchist system.

 

[white_goodman]

Libertarian/minarchism with Free Market Capitalism

wonder how many other people know who Bastiat is on this forum

 

[bullet21]

wonder how many other people know who Bastiat is on this forum

I'm guessing Bandicoot does, he appears to be a Jeffersonian.

 

[white_goodman]

 

[pixel]

sounds like a disaster, mob rule.. democracy in its purest form is akin to gang rape

My ideal society would value education more than entertainment; science more than religion; production more than consumption; and every "Right" would be conditional upon a commensurate "Responsibility".

Can it be achieved? IMO no - unless this were the only society on the planet. Because, people being what they are, there would always be a minority that wanted religious freedom, freedom of speech, freedom to enjoy this or that - all on the presumption of some "sacrosanct HUMAN RIGHT". And if they couldn't get it, there would be outside powers that would ostracize such a society and demand their warped brand of "Human Rights" - or else!

That aside, any form of "Utopia" may work for a generation or two - but ...

If you let ordinary people vote their representatives into power, the "ideal" will last only until they find out they can vote themselves a life of "Bread and Circus" - liberty without responsibility. No matter, how well-intentioned the start, how much responsibility is assigned to the Parliament: Once in power, the elected reps will drift towards "all perks, no recrimination". And they will prostitute themselves in order to be re-elected. Hence more "bread and circuses."

The same will happen over time if you enthrone a "Benevolent Dictator". Who decides what is benevolent? Benevolent for whom? And how is succession determined?

Robert A Heinlein had this to say (in "Time Enough for Love")

[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica]"Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are wiser than one man. How's that again? I missed something."

"Autocracy is based on the assumption that one man is wiser than a million men. Let's play that over again, too. Who decides?"[/FONT]

 

[disarray]

My ideal society would value education more than entertainment; science more than religion; production more than consumption; and every "Right" would be conditional upon a commensurate "Responsibility".

+1

what ever happened to "responsibilities"?

 

[Sean K]

Contented happiness: Eudaimonia.

Could probably only start to occur if the world's human population started shrinking.

 

[Julia]

+1

+2 for Pixel's remarks.

what ever happened to "responsibilities"?

They all belong to someone else apparently.

 

[white_goodman]

Contented happiness: Eudaimonia.

Could probably only start to occur if the world's human population started shrinking.

the birth rates of developed countries... below replacement.

The eugenics theme i find a little disturbing..

 

[white_goodman]

My ideal society would value education more than entertainment; science more than religion; production more than consumption; and every "Right" would be conditional upon a commensurate "Responsibility".

what type of 'rights' do you refer to?

 

[bullet21]

White, have you read any of his sons work. I'm reading The Machinery of Freedom at the moment, he is an Anarcho-Capitalist. It's thought provoking, especially if you have a libertarian leaning it may pique your interest.

 

[white_goodman]

White, have you read any of his sons work. I'm reading The Machinery of Freedom at the moment, he is an Anarcho-Capitalist. It's thought provoking, especially if you have a libertarian leaning it may pique your interest.

no i only read his blog whenever he updates it, ill give it a look

 

[gav]

no i only read his blog whenever he updates it, ill give it a look

The only good thing to ever come from France!

 

[pixel]

what type of 'rights' do you refer to?

If you feel the need to ask, you probably won't like the answer:
I balance every claimed right by a commensurate responsibility. To mention just a few examples -

The right to procreate balanced by the responsibility to look after your offspring.
The right to an education by the responsibility to make an honest effort to the best of your ability.
The right to express your opinion by the responsibility to respect others' views.
The right to vote by the responsibility to defend the country and respect the constitution.
The right to be elected into any office by the acceptance of being held accountable.
The right to own property by the responsibility towards the broader community.

I know of only one Constitution (there may be many) that includes this noble tenet "Property has obligations; it must be used for the benefit of the commonwealth." But I can't say it's made a difference in the way most Fat Cats of that country keep dodging taxes, let alone support any "worthy causes" but their own greed.