Whale wars

[pixel]

Is the way some religions treat women "part of there culture"acceptable then?

I have long been waiting for an argument like that.
Also the one that sptrawler raised, where do I draw the line.

Answer: I am abhorred by all kinds of cruelty. Whether it's directed against winged, feathered, furred, two-legged, eight-legged, or anything in between. And since some "animals" have invented religions to exert mental pain in addition to physical pain, both those kinds come under the same banner where human animals are concerned.

However, I would neither persecute a lion in Africa for feeding on a zebra, nor a cat on a farm in Europe for hunting and killing mice. However, I will protect Australian wildlife from being hunted and killed by a cat - or a fox, or any "introduced" species.

By extension, I accept that there are groups of people, who have survived in their natural habitat by hunting and gathering food sources that Westernised city dwellers can neither comprehend nor stomach.

By all means, talk to such groups, explain if it is objectively unsustainable. I cases like pandas, orangutans, tigers... give them a viable alternative and work with local governments to protect those animals from extinction or even pain for entertainment.

But don't tell anybody your own view is better because you're a civilised Westerner and they're barbarians. They might prove you right by judging you by their own standard.

 

[doctorj]

The xenophobia practised by anti-Japanese activists and their supporters on these pages has has everything to do with xenophobia and nothing to do with animal cruelty. You accuse me of being nasty, because I cannot condone xenophobia. If that is being nasty, I plead guilty.

My problem with whaling is all the crap around it. It's either a cultural thing or it isn't, but don't feed us some bollocks about it being 'science' (see http://www.whaling.jp). There really is very little that can be learned by killing the 20,516th whale that wasn't learned whilst killing the 20,515th (aside from perhaps how to get better at killing whales whilst avoiding protesters).

It seems to me that it's a matter of pride rather than culture. They don't like being prevented from doing something by the international community and they're using the carve out concerning science to get around the IWC rules. It's now to the point where they've been put in a corner and can't be seen backing down.

 

[Logique]

.. It seems to me that it's a matter of pride rather than culture. They don't like being prevented from doing something by the international community and they're using the carve out concerning science to get around the IWC rules. It's now to the point where they've been put in a corner and can't be seen backing down.

Finally someone who gets it. There's a way to deal with Japanese people and governments, and it includes respect for their culture and traditions. NGO's and activists needed to entertain the possibility that with a modicum of finesse, more may have been, and still could be achieved.

I suspect that green groups still have it in for the Japanese as buyers of the evil woodchips.

 

[Calliope]

Finally someone who gets it. There's a way to deal with Japanese people and governments, and it includes respect for their culture and traditions. NGO's and activists needed to entertain the possibility that with a modicum of finesse, more may have been, and still could be achieved.

I suspect that green groups still have it in for the Japanese as buyers of the evil woodchips.

Yes you woild think by now that our diplomats (not Roxon or Gillard] would have that "modicum of finesse" in dealings with the Japanese. The Japanese are a proud race and loss of face is taken very seriously. In the Pacific war it took the destruction of Tokyo by fire-bombing and two atomic bombs plus the threat of more, to bring them to their knees.

The raid on Tokyo March 9/10 1945 which killed 100 thousand people was the most destructive raid in history.

It is naive to pretend that the organised thuggery and hooliganism on the high seas perpetrated by the Sea Shepherd gang will cause the Japanese to retreat. If the Australian government kicked Watson and his thugs out of Australian waters it might open the door to a little diplomacy.

 

[IFocus]

Finally someone who gets it. There's a way to deal with Japanese people and governments, and it includes respect for their culture and traditions. NGO's and activists needed to entertain the possibility that with a modicum of finesse, more may have been, and still could be achieved.

I suspect that green groups still have it in for the Japanese as buyers of the evil woodchips.

I believe the path you talk about was used for Japanese blue fin tuna fishing which resulted in the destruction of various fishery's.

As for whaling the Yanks started it off to help feed the population after WWII.

They cannot sell the meat they currently have in storage, whaling will stop when the Japanese can no longer afford the arrogance of its fishery department which wields real power within the political structure.

 

[Smurf1976]

As for whaling the Yanks started it off to help feed the population after WWII.

My understanding is that whaling was largely finished well before WWII came along.

A quick google search reveals that the US' involvement peaked 100 years earlier and was pretty much over by that stage. Why did it decline? Peak whales! As the whales became scarcer, the cost of finding them increased to the point where whale oil became uneconomic compared to petroleum oil, hence the demise of the whale oil industry.

 

[sptrawler]

I believe the path you talk about was used for Japanese blue fin tuna fishing which resulted in the destruction of various fishery's.

As for whaling the Yanks started it off to help feed the population after WWII.

They cannot sell the meat they currently have in storage, whaling will stop when the Japanese can no longer afford the arrogance of its fishery department which wields real power within the political structure.

Whaling will stop when people stop buying the meat.
Try selling pork in Israel.
I don't think cow meat is that popular in India.
But I don't see Jews picketing our piggeries, or people hijacking our abattoirs.
Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with whaling, but I do agree with he who has not sinned should throw the first stone and I am not religious.

 

[pixel]

Whaling will stop when people stop buying the meat.
Try selling pork in Israel.
I don't think cow meat is that popular in India.
But I don't see Jews picketing our piggeries, or people hijacking our abattoirs.
Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with whaling, but I do agree with he who has not sinned should throw the first stone and I am not religious.

+1

Well put; we may even go one step further and ask those whale-savers, how they would feel if Muslim activists lobbied for THEIR moral values to be upheld everywhere. How about some Malaysian temperance group demands all pubs in Australia be closed and everybody caught having a glass of beer be given six lashes like the Law demands in Malaysia:
http://news.brisbanetimes.com.au/br...-models-caning-to-go-ahead-20090929-g9fy.html

 

[Julia]

+1

Well put; we may even go one step further and ask those whale-savers, how they would feel if Muslim activists lobbied for THEIR moral values to be upheld everywhere. How about some Malaysian temperance group demands all pubs in Australia be closed and everybody caught having a glass of beer be given six lashes like the Law demands in Malaysia:
http://news.brisbanetimes.com.au/br...-models-caning-to-go-ahead-20090929-g9fy.html

As far as my own stand is concerned, you're rather missing the point.
I don't care if the Japanese want to eat whale meat.
As long as the species is not endangered and they are operating in international waters I have no objection to them killing the animals if they do it quickly and cleanly.

What I do strongly object to is the prolonged and horrible death they inflict on the creatures.
I'm just implacably opposed to any cruelty to any animals.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

As far as my own stand is concerned, you're rather missing the point.
I don't care if the Japanese want to eat whale meat.
As long as the species is not endangered and they are operating in international waters I have no objection to them killing the animals if they do it quickly and cleanly.

What I do strongly object to is the prolonged and horrible death they inflict on the creatures.
I'm just implacably opposed to any cruelty to any animals.

It is slow. And whales have bigger brains than humans which implies that they may even suffer more than a human dragged backwards through the water for [edit] half an hour with harpoons in it.

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch?v=lmZWvKri6us

 

[Calliope]

What I do strongly object to is the prolonged and horrible death they inflict on the creatures.
I'm just implacably opposed to any cruelty to any animals.

People who are deliberately cruel to animals are usually psychopaths. However the reality is that the meat from any animal that appears on our plate, or in our dog's bowl, is there as a result of some animal's untimely and violent death. From the prawn boiled alive to the poleaxed steer they all died a cruel death. Not deliberate - but unavoidable.

 

[Julia]

People who are deliberately cruel to animals are usually psychopaths. However the reality is that the meat from any animal that appears on our plate, or in our dog's bowl, is there as a result of some animal's untimely and violent death. From the prawn boiled alive to the poleaxed steer they all died a cruel death. Not deliberate - but unavoidable.

Disagree. Shellfish can be numbed/rendered unconscious in a freezer rather than tossed into boiling water and cattle can be efficiently stunned prior to killing.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

I think you've lost the plot of the thread Julia.

Shellfish don't count. They're unlikely to suffer much at all. Big brained animals do. Apes, whales, dolphins etc. There's a huge difference.

 

[Calliope]

Disagree. Shellfish can be numbed/rendered unconscious in a freezer rather than tossed into boiling water and cattle can be efficiently stunned prior to killing.

I have visited a knackery and I must admit I came away truly saddened. I love horses having been brought up with them. Oh yes the horses are efficiently stunned. but while they are going up the race to their death, it is a different matter. Horses are very sensitive to the smell of blood and they become very nervous and agitated. Their fear is palpable. It is as though they know the end is near. Most of the horses have been transported long distances under conditions far from ideal.

I know this is done under strict conditions, but the cruelty is obvious...and unavoidable.

 

[IFocus]

My understanding is that whaling was largely finished well before WWII came along.

A quick google search reveals that the US' involvement peaked 100 years earlier and was pretty much over by that stage. Why did it decline? Peak whales! As the whales became scarcer, the cost of finding them increased to the point where whale oil became uneconomic compared to petroleum oil, hence the demise of the whale oil industry.

Smurf I meant the Yanks got the Japanese into serious whaling for food after WWII cheers

 

[Macquack]

I don't care if the Japanese want to eat whale meat.
As long as the species is not endangered and they are operating in international waters I have no objection to them killing the animals if they do it quickly and cleanly.

Totally Agree.

1.Species is endangered (according to the International Whaling Commission) JAPAN -FAIL.
2. International waters (may be debatable by some) but according to the Australian Goverment JAPAN - FAIL
3. Killing quickly and cleanly ( just have a look at any video of whaling) JAPAN - FAIL.

Japan is a total failure on this issue.

 

[doctorj]

Whaling's an emotional topic, but as we're unlikely to solve the world's problems in this thread, please keep it polite.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Whaling's an emotional topic, but as we're unlikely to solve the world's problems in this thread, please keep it polite.

May I ask if the war between the Sea Alsatians and the Japs is over.

I have heard nought about it for weeks.

gg

 

[pixel]

May I ask if the war between the Sea Alsatians and the Japs is over.

I have heard nought about it for weeks.

gg

Be glad they're giving us a rest.
The tree huggers have now taken a position on terra firma and make a nuisance of themselves wherever a council worker is carrying a chainsaw around.

 

[Macquack]

"South Korea under pressure to scrap whaling plan"

The Japs started the rot of the International Whaling Commission, now South Korea is in on the act trying to destroy the 1986 moratorium on commercial whaling.

To some extent I understand South Korea's plan as they see Japan has got away with using the fraud of "scientific whaling" for years. However, I believe Japan needs to be brought to justice for their actions so that loop hole is closed for any other rogue nation.

http://news.yahoo.com/tensions-japan-pushes-whaling-180147185.html