NBN Rollout Scrapped

[Garpal Gumnut]

Interesting developments today.

It appears that on the NBN, that those who need it , the poor and unwell, can't afford it, and those who can afford it, the affluent and rich, don't need it.

Business Plan 101 it ain't.

gg

 

[NBNMyths]

Interesting developments today.

It appears that on the NBN, that those who need it , the poor and unwell, can't afford it, and those who can afford it, the affluent and rich, don't need it.

Business Plan 101 it ain't.

gg

Yes, another demonstrably false beatup in the Oz, repeated on the LOLbolt blog. Never let the facts get in the way of a good anti-NBN/ALP rant.

As NBN co have always said, a 1Mbps upload speed (ie the theoretical -but unobtainable- maximum you can get on ADSL2+) is not sufficient for HD video conferencing. For this, you need to go to the next speed, the 25/5 plan.

The Australia nicely quote Internode's (quite reasonable) pricing, which puts the cheapest 25/5 plan at $69.95 per month (including a phone and $10 of calls). This is less than most people pay today for ADSL, and much less than Telstra's current ADSL entry level bundle.

They fail though to quote Exetel's NBN pricing (I guess since it would make their story moot), which has 25/5 NBN pricing starting at $37.50 per month. That's 25% cheaper than any phone+ADSL2 service available today. Therefore, if the poor/unwell can currently afford phone+ADSL, then they can certainly afford 25/5 on the NBN since it's 25% cheaper. It's also only $3/month more than their entry level which is $34.50.

I wonder what more the NBN could do? They are providing a service with 3x faster downloads and 6x faster uploads than the current average, for 25% less money than the cheapest bundle available over copper today. Just goes to show that some people are so blindly opposed to the NBN and/or the ALP that absolutely nothing could be produced that would appease them. Yet those same people will be yelling from the rooftops with praise if the coalition policy delivers them 12Mbps for $50/month.

 

[sails]

Do we really need 100mbps?

This is what we are getting and there is very little delay in loading pages. And I see we are slower thatn 60% of Australians - NBN seems a massive overkill. A little more speed would be good, but 100 mbps seems quite unnecessary for the average home user.

 

[NBNMyths]

How many of your devices are running at 300mbps ? At what about the average joe on the steet ?

My point was that if the NBN was to install fibre to a house today, how much 'extra' would the average person get out of it ?

Sure as time progresses, various house hold items will be churned, but considering the life time of some devices it ain't going to be over night, and by the time it does happen, the NBN will still be as useless as it is today.

I have a router capable of 150Mbps and a laptop that is capable of 300Mbps. I have a TV capable of 150Mbps (though it will never need it) plus an old airport express at 54Mbps plus two iPhones and an iPad that (I believe) can also do 150Mbps.

What the "average" person will get out of it depends on what standard their router and devices support. If they are 802.11g (ie the 2003 standard), then they will be able to get roughly 54Mbps, assuming they choose a fast enough NBN plan. If they have an 802.11n router (the 2009 standard), then they could get anywhere between 100 and 600Mbps depending on the channel bonding level supported by their router and devices. Most WiFi devices these days support 300Mbps.

Whatever they have though, the NBN will make a significant difference to their capability. The ADSL2+ average in Australia is only 8-9Mbps, which is obviously far below any WiFi device capacity.

Why is the NBN useless? What would you prefer?

 

[NBNMyths]

Do we really need 100mbps?

This is what we are getting and there is very little delay in loading pages. And I see we are slower thatn 60% of Australians - NBN seems a massive overkill. A little more speed would be good, but 100 mbps seems quite unnecessary for the average home user.

Then don't take the 100Mbps plan. That's the beauty of the NBN. If you are happy with the speeds you get, take the entry level at $35/month. You'll save 30% on what you pay now (and get 2x the speed to boot). In the future when you require more speed, you can gradually increase it. People who want 100Mbps now will pay for it, subsidising your cheap plan.

Saying what you have now copes and therefore the NBN is a waste is incredibly short sighted. 10 years ago, 128kbps ADSL1 seemed to cope perfectly with the needs then. But would it cope now? Of course not. The NBN isn't just about satisfying the need right now. It's about satisfying our future needs, and copper cannot do that. Considering the time it takes to roll out new networks, you need to plan for the future, not the present.

Imagine if they'd built the Sydney Harbour Bridge with 2 lanes, because "that will cope perfectly well with current demands".

People really don't get this. It's also not about loading web pages. It's about multiple users, video, uploads, conversations. It's about the rapid move towards broadband being the centre of our lives. Learning, medicine, entertainment, services, the cloud.

Here's an experiment for you though. Let's pretend you have a family using the internet at the same time.

Open three browser windows.

In the first, go to NASA.gov and watch a video of the Mars rover.

While that loads, open a skype conversation with your mother.

While that's happening, upload a album of photos to facebook.

Now tell me how fast a web page loads.​

The cloud is probably the next big thing. Try running that with your 240kbps upload speed. It would take a month to back up an average hard drive for the first time!

 

[sails]

If you are happy with the speeds you get, take the entry level at $35/month. You'll save 30% on what you pay now (and get 2x the speed to boot)....

I will? ? ?

We pay lass then $40 now - maybe get your facts straight before spewing out propaganda...

And I would love to talk to my mother on Skype. Unfortunately they don't have Skype in heaven...

 

[sptrawler]

That's the beauty of the NBN. If you are happy with the speeds you get, take the entry level at $35/month. You'll save 30% on what you pay now

+ the $40 - $50 billion of capital outlay/ working taxpayers= $35 + some.

 

[NBNMyths]

I will? ? ?

We pay lass then $40 now - maybe get your facts straight before spewing out propaganda...

You pay "less than $40", plus $30 in line rental = ~$70 total per month.

There's no "line rental" on the NBN, as the price is a total which is all inclusive of phone + broadband. So in your case, Exetel's $34.50 entry level plan is 2x faster for about half what you currently pay.

Hows them facts?

A nice illustration of just how poorly informed the public is about what the NBN plans include, no thanks to the media who constantly fail to compare apples with apples. In none of the Oz's articles have they made mention that there's no line rental cost attached to the NBN plans and they include a phone "line" (and calls too in Internode's case).

 

[medicowallet]

You pay "less than $40", plus $30 in line rental = ~$70 total per month.

There's no "line rental" on the NBN, as the price is a total which is all inclusive of phone + broadband. So in your case, Exetel's $34.50 entry level plan is 2x faster for about half what you currently pay.

Hows them facts?

A nice illustration of just how poorly informed the public is about what the NBN plans include, no thanks to the media who constantly fail to compare apples with apples. In none of the Oz's articles have they made mention that there's no line rental cost attached to the NBN plans and they include a phone "line" (and calls too in Internode's case).

a $40billion plus investment for a product that provides naked ADSL2 like performance with less download quota.

RIP OFF

OR faster speeds at ripoff monopoly pricing.

http://www.tpg.com.au/products_services/ull_pricing.php

Take a look here, and the ACCC and govt could provide this quite easily, with limited compensation.

 

[medicowallet]

Why do you need to upgrade any wiring?

My guess is that people will upgrade their WiFi routers as required. I have one from 2009 that already does 150Mbps. The vast majority of NBN customers are forecast to be on 12, 25 and 50Mbps plans for quite some time, so the standard 54Mbps WiFi will do them easily without need for replacement. The vast majority of people are already using either 54 (2003) or 100-300 (2009) WiFi. This includes routers and devices, so there's no need to upgrade them to get the speeds the NBN will provide.

BTW, what's the problem with consumption? Without it, we wouldn't have an economy.

Apart from the obvious parts like the retail sector, the mining industry depends on consumption. If people weren't buying cars, houses, TVs, phones, WiFi routers etc etc etc, then there wouldn't be a market for our raw materials.

Sorry to burst your reality, but consumption makes the World go around.

A VAST majority run wireless G which is not fast enough for the faster speeds.

Consumption is great, in moderation, because, as you might not understand, we are in a world market where people are ramping up offerings better than ours (both in mining and manufacturing) and we need to position ourselves in a much more stable place.

and the NBN investment will not do that.

Can you quantify the increase in exports directly linked to the transition from ADSL1 to ADSL2?

Why would ADSL2 to NBN be any different?

 

[sails]

You pay "less than $40", plus $30 in line rental = ~$70 total per month.

There's no "line rental" on the NBN, as the price is a total which is all inclusive of phone + broadband. So in your case, Exetel's $34.50 entry level plan is 2x faster for about half what you currently pay.

Hows them facts?

A nice illustration of just how poorly informed the public is about what the NBN plans include, no thanks to the media who constantly fail to compare apples with apples. In none of the Oz's articlen that there's no line rental cost attached to the NBN plans and they include a phone "line" (and calls too in Internode's case).

Nice illustration of how little you know...

We are on broadband cable. Don't need line rental, mr smarty pants...

Try and get your facts straight. You clearly know very little.

 

[NBNMyths]

Nice illustration of how little you know...

We are on broadband cable. Don't need line rental, mr smarty pants...

Try and get your facts straight. You clearly know very little.

Wow, that's even worse. You're on cable and you only get 6Mbps??? You'd better tell Malcolm Turnbull, since he's under the impression cable will deliver 100Mbps.

Anyway...So you're on broadband cable, and you pay Telstra a TOTAL of less than $40 per month for a phone and broadband? I think not.

Telstra's cheapest standalone cable broadband is $49.95 per month (with 2GB data and no phone). Or, $39.95 per month if you do have a home phone (ie are spending another $30 per month for that). Like I said, paying $70 per month for much, much less than the NBN would give you for $35.

How about we just stick to the facts huh, instead of leaving out half of them.

 

[NBNMyths]

A VAST majority run wireless G which is not fast enough for the faster speeds.

Consumption is great, in moderation, because, as you might not understand, we are in a world market where people are ramping up offerings better than ours (both in mining and manufacturing) and we need to position ourselves in a much more stable place.

and the NBN investment will not do that.

Can you quantify the increase in exports directly linked to the transition from ADSL1 to ADSL2?

Why would ADSL2 to NBN be any different?

As I wrote, Wireless G will cope with all but the fastest NBN plan. And I suspect that people signing up for 100Mbps would either have an N router, or be happy to buy one (You can get a decent one for $60 these days, or plenty of Telcos will give you one if you sign up for 2 years).

So who chooses what level/type of consumption is good and what's bad? Can you give some examples of each, and why they are good or bad?

 

[sptrawler]

Oakeshott came out with a classic today, he wants Conroy to explain to the Australian people the productivity improvements and the jobs that will be created by the N.B.N.
Conroy would have already spelled it out, if he knew.
Also wouldn't you think, as the chairman of the joint parliamentary committee of the N.B.N, Oakeshott would already have the answers.
It just goes to show another government stuff up about to explode.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...h-says-oakeshott/story-fn59niix-1226126660341

Obviously Conroy can't answer the question.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...forum-in-october/story-e6frg90f-1226134005712

Just shows these idiots don't know what they are doing, now they are going to ask people to come up with the job ideas for their stupid N.B.N and carbon tax policies.
Thats because they haven't got any idea if it will create jobs and in all probability will cause loss of jobs.
Oakeshott must be wondering what he has got himself tied up in, well more fool him.
IMO

 

[medicowallet]

Obviously Conroy can't answer the question.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...forum-in-october/story-e6frg90f-1226134005712

Just shows these idiots don't know what they are doing, now they are going to ask people to come up with the job ideas for their stupid N.B.N and carbon tax policies.
Thats because they haven't got any idea if it will create jobs and in all probability will cause loss of jobs.
Oakeshott must be wondering what he has got himself tied up in, well more fool him.
IMO

I would like him to do this, AND do projections for net exports/imports for the country AND the costs vs current ADSL2

He won't, cause he knows the answers.

A RIP OFF $45 billion endeavour to increase consumption and government revenue.

 

[stacks]

I would like him to do this, AND do projections for net exports/imports for the country AND the costs vs current ADSL2

He won't, cause he knows the answers.

A RIP OFF $45 billion endeavour to increase consumption and government revenue.

Do you seriously think that the aim of the NBN is " to increase consumption and government revenue" ?

Come on, you seem like an intelligent person so I hope you are not serious. Debate about the merits or the best way to go about providing fast internet is fair enough, but to say that the above is the agenda of the government in building the NBN is ridiculous to say the least...

 

[medicowallet]

Do you seriously think that the aim of the NBN is " to increase consumption and government revenue" ?

Come on, you seem like an intelligent person so I hope you are not serious. Debate about the merits or the best way to go about providing fast internet is fair enough, but to say that the above is the agenda of the government in building the NBN is ridiculous to say the least...

In the absence of a business case that proves that it will generate export dollars for the country, yes I do believe that the only use for the NBN is for consumption.

What is that alternative agenda?

 

[stacks]

In the absence of a business case that proves that it will generate export dollars for the country, yes I do believe that the only use for the NBN is for consumption.

What is that alternative agenda?

So the only aim of any government investment should be export dollars for the country?? And the only use for the NBN is consumption?? Again, that is ridiculous...

 

[NBNMyths]

Obviously Conroy can't answer the question.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...forum-in-october/story-e6frg90f-1226134005712

Just shows these idiots don't know what they are doing, now they are going to ask people to come up with the job ideas for their stupid N.B.N and carbon tax policies.
Thats because they haven't got any idea if it will create jobs and in all probability will cause loss of jobs.
Oakeshott must be wondering what he has got himself tied up in, well more fool him.
IMO

On the original article, I'd like to point out that the committee hasn't questioned whether those benefits exist, they have stated that the Govt needs to do a better job of articulating them. I agree. The report is actually quite useful and comprehensive, and there were numerous recommendations. Perhaps you should take a read.

As for jobs, well there will be the 20,000 people who will be up-skilled and directly employed rolling out the network over the next 8 years. Then there will be another thousand new employees at the manufacturing facilities of Corning and Prysmian in Sydney and Melbourne. Then there will probably be several thousand more who will get jobs indirectly from the rollout.

Aside from the rollout itself, you may not be aware that Deloitte Access Economics released a report last month that found that there are 190,000 Australians currently employed in occupations directly related to the internet. They expect this to increase by 80,000 in the next 5 years as the NBN is rolled out.

The Government have already articulated many benefits and uses for the NBN, and they will continue to do so I'm sure.

But surely, anyone with even a fraction of a brain must realise that many benefits which will come from high speed networks cannot yet be articulated, because they haven't been invented yet. Are there really people out there who are so short-sighted that they believe every use for broadband has already been invented and implemented?

Do you think, if asked 100 years ago, that Alexander Graham Bell could have forecast the future uses for his invention? Or forecast how many millions of people would be employed building and maintaining it, or directly and indirectly through its use?

I think I'll finish with a quote from acclaimed Professor Rod Tucker, awarded the Australia Prize in 1997 by PM John Howard for his services to telecommunications:

An enduring characteristic of human nature is our inability to understand and accept the rate of technological change and its impact on society.

I would like him to do this, AND do projections for net exports/imports for the country AND the costs vs current ADSL2

You do realise, don't you, that even the coalition are no longer proposing that we stick with basic ADSL2? They are now proposing a gradual improvement through fibre to the node and HFC cable upgrades.

The same Deloitte Access Economics report linked to above also found numerous other facts relating to the internet and broadband in Australia, and the impact of the NBN:

• The internet currently provides $27 billion pa in productivity savings in Australia
  
• The internet provides $53bn pa in household savings in Australia
  
• They predict the internet sector will grow at double the rate of the general economy.
  
• The internet directly contributes $50 billion to the Australian economy (the same as iron ore exports), and this will grow by $20 billion over the next 5 years.

They base these expectations on "the rollout of the National Broadband Network connecting more Australians at higher speeds, government and business making better use of the internet, and government developing a policy framework that supports investment and innovation in the internet economy."

I suppose you know the economy better than Deloitte Access?

 

[NBNMyths]

In the absence of a business case that proves that it will generate export dollars for the country, yes I do believe that the only use for the NBN is for consumption.

What is that alternative agenda?

Oh gee, I don't know. What could we possibly use a fast data network for?

Hmmm.

How about improving education and the availability of information?

How about improving and distributing scientific research (eg: the NBN already contributing to the incredible SKA telescope bid)
(personally, education and scientific research are my big tips)

How about improving productivity through a reduction in business waiting and down times?

How about improving the ability of SOHO business to develop and compete with larger and offshore businesses?

How about reducing vehicle traffic through viable telecommuting?

How about facilitating home healthcare in certain circumstances?

How about reducing the burden of aged care?

How about reducing household costs by providing expanded business and government services online?


BTW, you never did define good and bad consumption and how the determination is made. I am really looking forward to your reply on that....