Where in the hell is Australia heading?

[DB008]

Or you could work better than your competition in the amount of time allocated in the day to do work. Your notion of getting ahead is amazingly simplistic and basically relies on the brute force waste of time to do so. I prefer to do it through superior skills and knowledge.

Wait until you get into the real world champ before making claims like this....

(I can see it now...'Mum, l had to do x amount of OT and they won't pay me for it'....cry baby, cry!)

 

[trainspotter]

Wait until you get into the real world champ before making claims like this....

(I can see it now...'Mum, l had to do x amount of OT and they won't pay me for it'....cry baby, cry!)

C c c c careful there Danyyboy80 ....... he is straight out of university with a maths degree and a GREEN supporter. Be afraid ....... very afraid.

 

[RandR]

The best posts on this thread are by smurf.

For me, I hope Australia is heading down a path that will lead it to becoming a leading nation in what is the dawning of a new age for man and the world. The population is about to hit 7 billion ... and we are running out of ... well ... everything, be it oil, food, water, land, forest. Big changes are a must, for everyone. Will the political moves being undertaken today and currently in Australia help us to face these challenges, im not sure and I think it remains to be seen.

 

[moXJO]

This is an economic argument rather than an environmental one. Also it's a pretty big generalisation, ie. some of our trading partners do have carbon trading systems in place. In this sense, we are actually late with ours.



Are you kidding me? It's entirely relevant. Why put forth an arbitrary figure without anything to compare it to? This is the worst sort of reporting, and nothing less than I would expect from News Ltd.

Patrol powered cars are hardly "modern stuff", they have been around for a very very long time. I would consider "modern stuff" to be more along the lines of electric cars.

Which nations? What exactly are you comparing it too?
You accuse others of being light on detail and then commit the same act. And as for electric cars they are currently not much better than petrol pollution wise. And without coal fueled power stations I'd like to see whole suburbs recharge their cars at night.

Or you could work better than your competition in the amount of time allocated in the day to do work. Your notion of getting ahead is amazingly simplistic and basically relies on the brute force waste of time to do so. I prefer to do it through superior skills and knowledge.

How is experience relevant to the reason why workplace laws are in place?

Tell me are you going to be an employee or run your own business?
If it is employee, how exactly should you be paid for your super fast and efficient work? Because I can see the unions jumping up and down now on any cut in hours without an increase in wages. Business is already copping wage increase without productivity increase. It also opens a whole can of worms on other issues. You are looking at it from the point of an 'ideal world' scenario without factoring in the opposing forces in which make up the workplace.

This is what people say when they have backed themselves into a corner. You in fact can not explain your claims, because they are simply false. I did not "demand" you do anything either, I am merely giving your the opportunity to vindicate yourself from making false claims.

Yeah champ you are kind of speaking out your ass as well.

Parties are boring. No intellectual stimulation...

Don't know how to talk to chicks huh:
Just get in there, you have the rest of your life to be a boring twat. Enjoy your youth.

I understand your point; this is my biggest problem with the carbon tax, the fact that there is any compensation at all. It amounts to pressing the acceleration and break at the same time...it makes no sense.

But in regards to that, if the Greens had their way there would be no compensation (except for low income earners perhaps), this is something brought on by ALP.

I don't see how top income earners need any compensation, especially considering how little impact a price of $23/t will have.

*Shudder*

So you want a tax that does very little to avert climate change. Destroy the economy so we can't tackle climate change from a better financial position? Yes let’s also punish people for breathing out

I assert my mind is more open than yours.

No it's not really. However maybe you are not the propaganda machine I thought you were and genuinely want to be challenged. Drop the hug the planet bs and come over to the dark and productive side. At least things get done when you can make your own money and you are allowed to decide where you want to spend it.

You mean policies like...the baby bonus? FHOG? FHOB? Those sorts of policies? Yes, the greens are such a terrible party, oh wait...

That's your argument oh the lib/lab do it as well. Last time I checked they didn't throw us back to the Stone Age either.

Obviously you are an intelligent person and your thinking will change through experience imo.

 

[moXJO]

Rubbish unions moved work safety standards from projects budgeting for deaths to no deaths being acceptable on the job.

That came from hard fought campaigns in the 70's, 80's,90's and is ongoing now.

If you feel that work place deaths are acceptable then disband unions tomorrow.

The comments about unions here is half truths at best.

Oh you missed a whole lot of history there Ifocus and it had little to do with worker safety and a whole lot about being a parasitic toss force imposed on the workplace. But some employers do need their heads kicked once in a while. So yes while they $hit me to tears I do believe they are still needed. But their needs to be a solid balance of power between unions and employers. Once the pendulum swings to far either direction there are always problems

 

[wayneL]

Oh you missed a whole lot of history there Ifocus and it had little to do with worker safety and a whole lot about being a parasitic toss force imposed on the workplace. But some employers do need their heads kicked once in a while. So yes while they $hit me to tears I do believe they are still needed. But their needs to be a solid balance of power between unions and employers. Once the pendulum swings to far either direction there are always problems

Yep agree. There is absolutely nothing wrong with both industry and workers organizing to promote fair recompense for risk/effort.

Both are exchanging something of value for money and that should be as fair as possible for everyone. The only way that happens is if there is a reasonable balance of power. What that balance should be is of course a matter of debate.

 

[basilio]

Quote Originally Posted by Starcraftmazter View Post
Or you could work better than your competition in the amount of time allocated in the day to do work. Your notion of getting ahead is amazingly simplistic and basically relies on the brute force waste of time to do so. I prefer to do it through superior skills and knowledge.
Wait until you get into the real world champ before making claims like this....

(I can see it now...'Mum, l had to do x amount of OT and they won't pay me for it'....cry baby, cry! Danny boy)

Coming from a forum of stock exchange investors and traders that's very rich !! After all most of the reason we are here is because we are looking for a smart investment or trade that will make us a killing without having to invest more than intellectual skills and some smarts. I think that is largely what Star. is saying.

I noticed that Star is a new member to ASF and I think if we want to have a healthy, growing and diverse online community we could offer some civility to him (as well as everyone else) :

 

[moXJO]

(I can see it now...'Mum, l had to do x amount of OT and they won't pay me for it'....cry baby, cry! Moxjo)

Was my name in that quote?

 

[Smurf1976]

But some employers do need their heads kicked once in a while. So yes while they $hit me to tears I do believe they are still needed. But their needs to be a solid balance of power between unions and employers. Once the pendulum swings to far either direction there are always problems

Agreed.

I know of one situation at the moment where the employer wants to spend $1000 extra per employee, for no reason other than to deny employees a specific benefit they presently have. Employees clearly lose, and the employer readily acknowledges that it is going to cost them more than at present for no gain to either party.

Once you realise that madness like that actually does exist, then you realise that unions do have a valid role despite being far from perfect themselves.

 

[basilio]

Was my name in that quote?

Oops!! Apologies. Had a brain fade while writing. Text is corrected.

 

[moXJO]

Had a brain fade while writing.

Don't you steal my writing method ™

 

[Starcraftmazter]

I thought you might. I believe you... promise... honestly

I suppose you believe you can urinate further than me as well?

Maybe, maybe not. But at least my mind is open enough to accept that some people might...just might...have different drinking preferences.

This is another hypothesis of mine that you have conveniently added some observational data to, viz those watermelons of the extreme left have a deficiency rendering them unable to recognize tongue in cheek comment.

Way to get out of making a stupid comment.

BTW, I have never heard of these. Sounds exciting, what are they?

Basically cars which run on patrol. Not half as exciting as it sounds considering we're probably past peak oil.

What is the rate of carbon tax in those countries with which we directly compete (as distinct from trade with)?

Now you're changing it from "trading partners" to "countries we directly compete with".

South Africa? Qatar? Brazil? Saudi Arabia? Canada? Indonesia? USA?

I would claim irrelevant. The carbon "tax" (which is not an actual tax by the way...), is not going to shut down or significantly effect any industry. Perhaps if the carbon price was set at several hundred $ per tonne it might have, but not at $23/t.

Which nations? What exactly are you comparing it too?
You accuse others of being light on detail and then commit the same act.

This is pretty easy to find however...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissions_trading#Trading_systems

And as for electric cars they are currently not much better than petrol pollution wise. And without coal fueled power stations I'd like to see whole suburbs recharge their cars at night.

Given they don't actually burn any oil or any other fossil fuels, I would claim they are a lot better. Where electricity comes from is another and separate matter.

You could easily install solar panels on the roof of a house which store the energy they collect during daytime and recharge the car at nighttime. This is particularly effective as the people living in suburbs in houses rather than apartments are the ones that rely on cars for transport more than those people living in denser parts of cities where more public transportation options are available.

Tell me are you going to be an employee or run your own business?
If it is employee, how exactly should you be paid for your super fast and efficient work? Because I can see the unions jumping up and down now on any cut in hours without an increase in wages. Business is already copping wage increase without productivity increase. It also opens a whole can of worms on other issues. You are looking at it from the point of an 'ideal world' scenario without factoring in the opposing forces in which make up the workplace.

Employee. I simply believe that people should not have to work more than 8 hours a day (if you want to that's your choice - but at the same time, it should not be impossible to get paid more simply because you do not want to do overtime), and people should be paid based on the quality and quantity of the work they complete in these 8 hours - on average.

Additionally wages need to track inflation which is the reason for their growth...

Just get in there, you have the rest of your life to be a boring twat. Enjoy your youth.

People enjoy things differently.

So you want a tax that does very little to avert climate change. Destroy the economy so we can't tackle climate change from a better financial position? Yes let’s also punish people for breathing out

We've had a better financial position for the last decade, and not a damn thing was done. No, I do not want what you said; however the choice is not that. The choice is between doing nothing and starting a carbon trading scheme. This is how it has to start (that is, in our present political climate), it may not be overly effective, but it is very much supposed to lead to something better.

No it's not really. However maybe you are not the propaganda machine I thought you were and genuinely want to be challenged. Drop the hug the planet bs and come over to the dark and productive side. At least things get done when you can make your own money and you are allowed to decide where you want to spend it.

I already make my own money and decide how to spend it...this is why I am here - because I do not subscribe to consumerist behaviour, but would rather see my capital be put into productive investments which further our economy.

Productivity and environmental responsibility as well as sustainability however do not need to be mutually exclusive.

That's your argument oh the lib/lab do it as well. Last time I checked they didn't throw us back to the Stone Age either.

We are not in any stone age; I do not take kindly to mindless exaggerations.

Obviously you are an intelligent person and your thinking will change through experience imo.

Of course, it always does; but to take this thread as an example, so far nobody has presented any sort of a coherent argument, just a lot of "well, you're young, indoctrinated, and I run a business and want more money so maybe you should work like a Chinese slave labourer, <insert something from News Ltd here>" rubbish.

 

[trainspotter]

I noticed that Star is a new member to ASF and I think if we want to have a healthy, growing and diverse online community we could offer some civility to him (as well as everyone else) :

I concur with this prophecy. If "we" (as in the political animals) continue to denigrate the opinions from the other side we will not have anyone to play with in here. Unless we end up having a mutual gratification committee whereby we all agree with each other. Boring circle jerk IMO.

Open discussion on any subject matter is healthy as long we stick to the facts. Opinions are fine but do not necessarily mean they are right. I reject your sense of reality and replace it with my own.

Youth is wasted on the young. George Bernard Shaw

Anyhooooooooo ....... The merry go round of carbon tax will be excellent cannon fodder for all of us to diseminate openly in here. Irrespective of age and political leanings. Some of the figures being sprouted seem a bit rubbery to me but will post my findings with pie charts and cross continuum spreadsheets at a later date.

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. George Bernard Shaw ..... again.

 

[Wysiwyg]

And as for electric cars they are currently not much better than petrol pollution wise. And without coal fueled power stations I'd like to see whole suburbs recharge their cars at night.

Given they don't actually burn any oil or any other fossil fuels, I would claim they are a lot better.

Where t.f. do you think the materials come from and are processed to make these cars. You don't know ****.

The choice is between doing nothing and starting a carbon trading scheme. This is how it has to start (that is, in our present political climate), it may not be overly effective, but it is very much supposed to lead to something better.

Wrong again! This is not an Australian carbon dioxide issue. The problem is large countries creating ever increasing pollution and regardless what our tiny amount of reduction is at the expense of whole towns and jobs gone overseas, they will still produce more.

I already make my own money and decide how to spend it...this is why I am here - because I do not subscribe to consumerist behaviour, but would rather see my capital be put into productive investments which further our economy.

Do you push paper in a government role? A position shuffling paper in the new climate change ministry?

Productivity and environmental responsibility as well as sustainability however do not need to be mutually exclusive.

Well written.

 

[moXJO]

M

We are not in any stone age; I do not take kindly to mindless exaggerations.




Of course, it always does; but to take this thread as an example, so far nobody has presented any sort of a coherent argument, just a lot of "well, you're young, indoctrinated, and I run a business and want more money so maybe you should work like a Chinese slave labourer, <insert something from News Ltd here>" rubbish.

With comments like the above you wonder why no one is bothering Honestly we have some of the best working conditions here.
You ignore a lot of consequences on the economy. You have no idea how business works, or that you can already work how you please provided you are in fact productive to the business. You will find that many companies are willing to look after you.
It is not as simplistic as saying "these policies won't affect the economy" when clearly slight alterations can produce extremes. And knee jerk reactions can destroy people’s lives. There are a lot of factors you have to wade through.
Economy is important it effects every decision Australia is able to make. You want a third world existence then destroy business confidence and have them running offshore.
I'm talking Stone Age business wise and I'm not exaggerating. You want to lose innovation and investment then follow that line of thinking. And yes experience has a lot to do with it; your youth does shine through in all your posts. You wanting to be an employee is no surprise though, who the hell wants to be boss when you have this mentality.
You also want to be babied by government then Good for you. There are a whole lot of government departments who will decide on how you spend those hard earned dollars from your you beaut career. That way the only decision you have to make is which latte you want for the day

 

[Starcraftmazter]

Where t.f. do you think the materials come from and are processed to make these cars. You don't know ****.

Unless you suggest that the manufacture of electric cars produces more carbon emissions than the manufacture of oil-fueled cars plus the entire emissions from the operation of those oil-fueled cars, then I fail to see your point.

Wrong again! This is not an Australian carbon dioxide issue. The problem is large countries creating ever increasing pollution and regardless what our tiny amount of reduction is at the expense of whole towns and jobs gone overseas, they will still produce more.

Well, the "carbon tax" will be implemented in Australia now, I await to hear what towns (and jobs) have gone overseas from it.

I'm talking Stone Age business wise and I'm not exaggerating. You want to lose innovation and investment then follow that line of thinking.

Australia doesn't have much innovation nor investment in regards to anything other than mining. This is very very sad. Good work conditions do not equate to no innovation - in fact, I would argue they produce better innovation.

You wanting to be an employee is no surprise though

I never said I want to be an employee (or did not want), the question asked was whether I was an employee.

I don't much care about my position, I like building things and figuring out how to do things better, and that is what I would like to do.

You also want to be babied by government then Good for you.

Not entirely sure how you came to this conclusion, nor what exactly you mean.

 

[trainspotter]

I read somewhere that the energy output (pollutants) required to make an electric car outweighs the total emissions the car would produce in it's lifetime. Of course it is better than a fossil fuel based car (but suprisingly not that much) Has something to do with the batteries/electric motors/development etc. Just take the diesel bus instead.

Not wanting to be picky about the solar panels on the roof thingy but unless they are linked to a battery storage system they will have no electricity generation capacity at night. Most of the power during the day will go into running the house and excess goes into the grid. At night it is a whole different regime. Just thought I would point that out.

 

[wayneL]

Way to get out of making a stupid comment.

Well if you consider the cultural lexicon of Anglo-Saxon countries as stupid, well fair enough, but that is likely to alienate you from those whom you seek to influence.

As you may have started to notice, you are preaching to:

a/ the converted

b/ those whom you haven't a hope in Hades of ever influencing to look at your point of view.

While many of us old farts marvel at the youthful enthusiasm with which you present your faux (and indoctrinated) logic, I for one relish the thought of how experience will eventually temper this and how often I have observed the same.

But back onto the drinking passage; I note that you fail to participate in reasoned debate on why you think it is wrong, but instead revert to the kindergarten style "it's stupid" type approach, without any intellectual validation.

I will look forward to something other than puerile taunts and convoluted waffle with no point from you, unless of course your primary goal is alienation of all those with non-watermelon ideology.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

I read somewhere that the energy output (pollutants) required to make an electric car outweighs the total emissions the car would produce in it's lifetime. Of course it is better than a fossil fuel based car (but suprisingly not that much) Has something to do with the batteries/electric motors/development etc. Just take the diesel bus instead.

Sounds interesting, but unless you can find the source I have an extremely hard time believing this.

Not wanting to be picky about the solar panels on the roof thingy but unless they are linked to a battery storage system they will have no electricity generation capacity at night. Most of the power during the day will go into running the house and excess goes into the grid. At night it is a whole different regime. Just thought I would point that out.

If you read my posts, this is precisely what I said, ie. linked to a battery which stores the energy during daytime and recharges the car at night. This is not complicated or uncommon (the battery setup that is), and it is certainly not impossible.

but that is likely to alienate you from those whom you seek to influence.

I do not seek to influence anyone.

But back onto the drinking passage; I note that you fail to participate in reasoned debate on why you think it is wrong, but instead revert to the kindergarten style "it's stupid" type approach, without any intellectual validation.

I actually did not read it from the first few words, as it is obvious that it makes a wide range of assumptions and implications. For instance, someone could be allergic to alcohol - and how is this a reason to mistrust them? Perhaps they could have had one of their kidneys fail, and the other is very weak. Again...not a legitimate reason to not trust them. Clearly the passage is nothing short of stupidity.

I will look forward to something other than puerile taunts and convoluted waffle with no point from you

That's funny, I was just thinking the same about you...

 

[trainspotter]

Sounds interesting, but unless you can find the source I have an extremely hard time believing this.

If you read my posts, this is precisely what I said, ie. linked to a battery which stores the energy during daytime and recharges the car at night. This is not complicated or uncommon (the battery setup that is), and it is certainly not impossible.

I will try and find the book I was reading a couple of months ago. Pretty sure I loaned it to someone of similar mindset as yourself to try and get a balance. Maybe even perform a Google rummage that will direct me to some subversive pro CO2 site !

Ummmmmm not wanting to be picky AGAIN but your post did not mention anything at all about being linked to batteries young bean.

You wrote this "You could easily install solar panels on the roof of a house which store the energy they collect during daytime and recharge the car at nighttime. This is particularly effective as the people living in suburbs in houses rather than apartments are the ones that rely on cars for transport more than those people living in denser parts of cities where more public transportation options are available."

Solar panels do not store electricity. They generate it. Batteries will or molten salts/parrafin wax storage systems will store heat to generate electricity and are insanely expensive. Please consider that the cost of manufacutring as well as mining the zinc/lead/copper/lithium PLUS research and development required as well the plastics (oil byproduct) etc etc. when accounting for saving the planet.