Sexual harrassment at DJ's

[basilio]

Basilio, I think you've misunderstood my post. In saying that:

Quote:
any prior actions by either party have no bearing on whether DJ's board knew what was going on in their own company or not, and that seems to be the crux of the punitive damages she's seeking isn't it?

I was referring to the actions of either McInnes or Fraser-Kirk during prior employment, or since leaving DJ's. Perhaps I should have made myself clearer. I had just read the following from the link you quoted above http://www.theage.com.au/business/ha...802-113eb.html

Thanks DocK for the clarification. I thought as much but it seemed unclear.

Nice job on highlighting the alleged extent of Mr Mcinnes interest in staff and (almost ) any other woman with a pulse.

(Given the above poor Allannah Hill would have felt truly mortified in not being invited back..)

________________________________________________

It's interesting to reflect on the larger picture. Obviously Mr McInnes had a huge passion for life, love and woman. Certainly in some of the newspaper reports there was a lot of warmth displayed towards him from a number of people because of this passion. I'm guessing that his highly charged passion was generally a positive driving force in a woman dominated industry.

On memory I believe at least a couple of the newspaper reports acknowledged that plenty of women responded to his attention. Probably the men (including the board) just thought "What a lucky bastard" and prayed nothing went pear shaped. And in the end it looks as if McInnes just couldn't understand how anyone could possibly say no to his offers.

I wonder if there are any present or ex DJ staffers who are writing up a good juicy story on life around Mark ? Certainly make a good read and no doubt No Idea et al would love to serialise it. (and never, ever see a cent of DJ's advertising until hell freezes over.)

But perhaps it would go better as a viral post on the net ?

 

[basilio]

Came across an excellent blog by a lawyer who was reviewing the DJ's sexual harrassment case.

Offered great personal perspectives as well as an insight to the legal processes around this case. Check it out.

http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2010/08/05/sexual-harassment-and-the-law/

_____________________________________________________________________

Also another blog from someone who counts Mark McInnes as a friend. There is a particularly interesting comment submitted from someone worked at DJ's and noted just how many young pretty blonde staff were befriended by Mark and scored lots of lovely handbags.

http://www.mamamia.com.au/weblog/2010/08/kristy-fraser-kirk-sues-david-jones-for-37m.html

 

[awg]

I feel suspicious that this lady, for whatever reason, is using the system to maximise her financial gain.

The reason I say this is that she would have been fully and completely familiar with the way sexual harrasment legislation and cases work, if she had been thru a settlement with a government institution such as NSW police.

Govt depts have "led the charge" on sex harrasment for years.

The way her comments and case are stuctured smack to me of a manipulation.

It would seem to me the alleged harrasment she suffered, was at the low end of the scale, but definitely would constitute harrasment as defined.

The settlement she is claiming is out of proportion

When I was a Commonwealth pubic servant, we were extensivly trained in this stuff.

Subsequently, as mentioned in an earlier post, saw many cases.

What I didnt mention, is that there were more "non-cases" that "real" cases

I reckon a settlement is on the cards, as I feel that there is far more to this story than meets the eye, and her reputation will be trashed if it goes to court.

I could be completely wrong, in that she could be an innocent victim, completely harrassed by a monster, who did everything by the book.

However I would say based on observation of a senior manager I once worked with, who was devastatingly handsome, he never bothered the ladies, as it was completely unneccesary.

As a general rule, he didnt even bother talking to the ladies till the end of the evening, by then, they had been making eyes at him all night, and he would just select the best contender. ( this guy told me he once slept with a different woman every day for a whole year, and it was very believable)

That, to me, is a very dissonate part of the equation

 

[Julia]

I

I think having your work life disrupted by a predatory CEO who will not take no for an answer would be a long term very painful stress. It would be something you were facing over an extended period of time. You would have to continually juggle the question of complaining with all the stigma attached to that; giving in or accepting the behaviour and feeling (rightly) as if you are being abused ; or leaving your job and facing the uncertainty of looking for new employment. The last scenario is probably not viable for women with few skills in, for example, the textile industry. I remember there were a number of cases where foremen took advantage of this vulnerability to exploit women workers.

____________________________

The strongest reason most people don't end up pressing charges is realising they will have to go through the whole experience time after time with the lawyers,the police, the courts and the public simply reopening the wounds. And in the end there is every likelihood there will be no justice. Not very appetizing ...

That's a reasonable response, Basilio, thank you.

However, whatever the situation actually turns out to be (if we ever know) between DJ's, Ms FK and Mr McInnes, to me it's all ridiculously disproportionate in terms of general fuss and amount claimed when it's compared with real sexual assault and abuse which happens every day to thousands of women and children, none of whom have the resources and knowledge available to Ms FK.

I can't help thinking that maybe some of Ms FK's ardent supporters could more usefully marshal their passions into doing something toward helping those genuine victims who lack the capacity to stand up for themselves.
The current DJ's situation seems to me somewhat obscene in comparison.

 

[wayneL]

However, whatever the situation actually turns out to be (if we ever know) between DJ's, Ms FK and Mr McInnes, to me it's all ridiculously disproportionate in terms of general fuss and amount claimed when it's compared with real sexual assault and abuse which happens every day to thousands of women and children, none of whom have the resources and knowledge available to Ms FK.

I can't help thinking that maybe some of Ms FK's ardent supporters could more usefully marshal their passions into doing something toward helping those genuine victims who lack the capacity to stand up for themselves.
The current DJ's situation seems to me somewhat obscene in comparison.

Hear Hear Julia.

 

[Calliope]

I can't help thinking that maybe some of Ms FK's ardent supporters could more usefully marshal their passions into doing something toward helping those genuine victims who lack the capacity to stand up for themselves.
The current DJ's situation seems to me somewhat obscene in comparison.

Fraser-Kirk will regret making this statement over the weekend. She is on a crusade for the sisterhood and wants DJs to make a large donation to the cause. This statement probably rules out punitive damages for her. They will probably give her a million to go away.

And why does she need a publicist?

''As I have already said, I am asking the court to award punitive damages against David Jones, not because of what was done to me, but because of the entrenched culture over time that allowed it to happen, a culture that failed to protect me and other women.''

http://www.3aw.com.au/blogs/3aw-generic-blog/undeterred-by-media-smear/20100809-11s3x.html

 

[basilio]

That's a reasonable response, Basilio, thank you.

However, whatever the situation actually turns out to be (if we ever know) between DJ's, Ms FK and Mr McInnes, to me it's all ridiculously disproportionate in terms of general fuss and amount claimed when it's compared with real sexual assault and abuse which happens every day to thousands of women and children, none of whom have the resources and knowledge available to Ms FK.

I can't help thinking that maybe some of Ms FK's ardent supporters could more usefully marshal their passions into doing something toward helping those genuine victims who lack the capacity to stand up for themselves.
The current DJ's situation seems to me somewhat obscene in comparison.

I think it has been said many times now by Ms Fraser-Kirk, various commentators and the legal profession.

This case is being pursed on behalf of all victims of sexual harassment. If there is going to be a pot of money at the end it is going to be donated to a centre that will support victims of sexual harassment and assault.

No one has agreed that this particular instance while nasty is worth $37 m. or anywhere near it. It is simply that this is a unique opportunity to conduct a public high profile case that might fundamentally change how businesses view sexual harassment issues and that if successful to some degree will provides the resources for others who need support.

____________________________________________________________
The Age Editorial

Rape is a crime and worse than sexual harassment. But Fraser-Kirk's critics - mostly women - are missing the point. Fraser-Kirk is seeking punitive damages; in civil lawsuits, such damages are a means of punishing defendants. The idea is that the interests of society as well as the individual concerned can be met by imposing such damages. Fraser-Kirk has said any punitive damages she is awarded will go to a charity working in the area of sexual harassment and bullying, although she would keep any other money she may receive for general loss and damages.

The punitive damages claim should be seen as an attempt to influence Australian corporate culture which, despite policies against it, continues to tolerate sexual harassment. For years, women have either put up with it or - if they complained - ended up the loser. ''This is not just about me,'' Fraser-Kirk has said.

She says David Jones executives were aware of McInnes's conduct. According to Fraser-Kirk, four other women were also sexually harassed by McInnes and David Jones knew of three. Not all women feel able to make formal complaints. But when they do not, the perpetrator's behaviour can continue unchecked, and the company can deny it has a problem.

We do not know if Fraser-Kirk's audacious claim will succeed, and the $37 million is undoubtedly over the top and won't survive. But we hope that by launching the claim she influences the way corporate Australia acts. It is not just about an individual woman receiving damages for lost income. This time, it's about whether a corporation should be punished for allowing it to persist..

 

[pixel]

That's a reasonable response, Basilio, thank you.

However, whatever the situation actually turns out to be (if we ever know) between DJ's, Ms FK and Mr McInnes, to me it's all ridiculously disproportionate in terms of general fuss and amount claimed when it's compared with real sexual assault and abuse which happens every day to thousands of women and children, none of whom have the resources and knowledge available to Ms FK.

I can't help thinking that maybe some of Ms FK's ardent supporters could more usefully marshal their passions into doing something toward helping those genuine victims who lack the capacity to stand up for themselves.
The current DJ's situation seems to me somewhat obscene in comparison.

That's precisely my concern, Julia;

I was thinking of home invaders, drunk drivers, hit'n'runners... who all leave real victims in their wake and get away with a slap on the wrist, while their victims can't even get a penny of compensation out of them. Problem is, those victims aren't "sexy" enough to stir emotions and sell gossip magazines.

There are countless more victims, whose trauma goes immensely deeper than feeling uncomfortable about unwelcome advances. For every Ms FK, who can very effectively and articulately defend herself, there are hundred others who can not. How many of those will start thinking "if she can get Millions, maybe I can try the same..."?

Which gets me back to the "message" that the readers get from those mags: "Never mind the pimply boy next door that touched you up; nothing to gain from taking him to court. Accuse your boss and you've got it made."

 

[Calliope]

And that's the nub of it basilio; The Age ( The Pravda on the Yarra) newspaper's vendetta against Corporate Australia.

We do not know if Fraser-Kirk's audacious claim will succeed, and the $37 million is undoubtedly over the top and won't survive. But we hope that by launching the claim she influences the way corporate Australia acts

Now I know why she has a publicist. Everybody with an axe to grind should have one.

One media organisation said she had approached it to buy her story, a claim she denied on Sunday.
"Numerous media have offered to buy my story for an exclusive," she said.
"I am not asking for money for my story," she said in the statement.
"I have always believed it is the right of all women to feel safe in the workplace.
"We shouldn't have to ask for that respect.
"I want to reassure (women who have supported me) that I will not be deterred by smear and innuendo.
"In fact, it makes me stronger and convinces me that I am doing the right thing."

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/business/publicist-wont-back-down/story-e6frfm1i-1225902809739#ixzz0wBOmWtU4

 

[basilio]

xxx

 

[basilio]

And that's the nub of it basilio; The Age ( The Pravda on the Yarra) newspaper's vendetta against Corporate Australia.

Quote:

We do not know if Fraser-Kirk's audacious claim will succeed, and the $37 million is undoubtedly over the top and won't survive. But we hope that by launching the claim she influences the way corporate Australia acts

Please calliope, please. Just rock on down to Pravda on the Yarra and point out how wildly anti-business they are and tell them to go back to Mother Russia where they truly belong.

Now, with regard to their hope that the launching of Ms Fraser -Kirks audacious claim will actually influence the way corporate Australia acts.

I thought that( regardless of whether the claim was over done, the amount ridiculously high and so on,) everyone else has agreed that this incident should make business far more thoughtful about how their employees are treated with regard to sexual harassment issues

Are you saying DJ's and the rest of the business world shouldn't reconsider any of their practices after this incident and the fallout ? That this was all okay ?

Tell me it ain't so Joe...

 

[basilio]

And a view from inside DJ's taken from the Mamma Mia blog site. My bolds

what?! says:
August 10, 2010 at 11:01 am

Ok. I really wasn’t going to comment on this one. Still not sure if I will press submit, however, the views of some people below entirely baffle me.

Frazer-Kirk is clearly an intelligent worldly girl. Perhaps in some other industries she would remain employable after this stand. In some she may even be lauded for standing up to the ‘man’. She knows that will not be the case for her. This young girl is completely unemployable in her industry and I can’t imagine how that must feel at her age.

I don’t know if I would do what she has done but I praise her for doing it. She must have known small minded people would paint her as a tease and gold digger, and that even when she announced she would not keep the money, they as a last resort they would claim she was seeking her 15 mins of fame. I mean, really…please?

Finally, for anyone who has made it this far through my post, I am in no doubt myself that what Fraser-Kirk alleges, took place. I am also in no doubt that senior management knew of it, and had done in other cases.

I worked for many years at David Jones in a department which McInnes frequented. He was known to loiter at some counters flirting with particular girls. He was also known to have ‘girlfriends’ on staff. These girls would inevitably be young, pretty blondes who shortly after associating with McInnes owned a vast array of designer handbags which would be gingerly checked in each day at the staff door. From what I know, all of these girls happily recieved his advances and the attention. So maybe there’s no problem there….but the fact remains that these girls were considerably younger than McInnes, and he was their boss. It never sat well with me.

David Jones management would have to have been closing their eyes, blocking their ears and humming the star wars tune to not have known this was going on. It seems bizzare to me that they did not suggest (or insist) McInnes conduct his love life outside of the work environment.

Sorry to Mia that this is such a difficult situation for you. People do have many sides and I am not suggesting I know Mr McInnes well or that he is a bad person. I just can’t stand the way a young girl is being attacked for being put in an untennable situation but coming out fighting.

http://www.mamamia.com.au/weblog/2010/08/kristy-fraser-kirk-sues-david-jones-for-37m.html

 

[Calliope]

If you are going to quote me, do it honestly and don't throw in your added smilies

More of basilo's verballing:

Are you saying DJ's and the rest of the business world shouldn't reconsider any of their practices after this incident and the fallout ? That this was all okay ?

No. Read my post, and try to be honest.

 

[basilio]

If you are going to quote me, do it honestly and don't throw in your added smilies

More of basilo's verballing:

Quote:
Are you saying DJ's and the rest of the business world shouldn't reconsider any of their practices after this incident and the fallout ? That this was all okay ?

No. Read my post, and try to be honest.

It's still not clear Calliope. I wasn't trying to verbal you with my question. In fact I was thinking that you didn't really believe that DJ's had done the right thing but that view was lost in the post and you would like to clarify it..

 

[Calliope]

It's still not clear Calliope. I wasn't trying to verbal you with my question. In fact I was thinking that you didn't really believe that DJ's had done the right thing but that view was lost in the post and you would like to clarify it..

What pompous nonsense. My advice to you is that if you are going to alter quotes by adding you own bolds or smilies then you are being dishonest. But if you continue this practice you should at least add an adendum that they are your bolds, smilies, etc.

 

[basilio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by basilio View Post
It's still not clear Calliope. I wasn't trying to verbal you with my question. In fact I was thinking that you didn't really believe that DJ's had done the right thing but that view was lost in the post and you would like to clarify it..

What pompous nonsense. My advice to you is that if you are going to alter quotes by adding you own bolds or smilies then you are being dishonest. But if you continue this practice you should at least add an adendum that they are your bolds, smilies, etc

Calliope can we please get over my addition of the smilies to your quotes. They were intended to reflect my surprise at the statement rather than your comments.

But my question still remains as I expressed it earlier and for the sake of the conversation I'd like your thoughts and any qualifications you might make.

I thought that( regardless of whether the claim was over done, the amount ridiculously high and so on,) everyone else has agreed that this incident should make business far more thoughtful about how their employees are treated with regard to sexual harassment issues

Are you saying DJ's and the rest of the business world shouldn't reconsider any of their practices after this incident and the fallout ? That this was all okay ?

 

[Calliope]

Calliope can we please get over my addition of the smilies to your quotes. They were intended to reflect my surprise at the statement rather than your comments.

You can't weasel out. It was a dishonest attempt to indicate that I was confused and not you.

But my question still remains as I expressed it earlier and for the sake of the conversation I'd like your thoughts and any qualifications you might make.

My thoughts are that you are dishonest, and my qualifications are that I can spot a phony a mile off.

 

[Ruby]

No one has agreed that this particular instance while nasty is worth $37 m. or anywhere near it. It is simply that this is a unique opportunity to conduct a public high profile case that might fundamentally change how businesses view sexual harassment issues and that if successful to some degree will provides the resources for others who need support.

This is well put Basilio. Also good editorial you quoted.

 

[sam76]

If only people sought advice from South Park...

 

[Julia]

I'm still waiting for one of you FK supporters to tell me how you intend to advance the cause of the women and children who lack the resources of Ms FK, but who every day experience violent sexual assault and incest.

I guess it's easier not to focus on them.
Way more important to care about a precious little petal and her skills in the publicity field.

If any of you were prepared to spend six months just observing in a domestic violence refuge, you might develop some inkling of the real problems out there.
You'd see not confident, articulate young women able to negotiate with the media in advancing their cause, nursing their silly little grievances, but women, usually with little kids at their feet, who move from town to town in an attempt to evade further violence from an ex-partner against whom they have an AVO, a document which is meant to protect them. Such documents are a joke.
The men they are fleeing from have sexually, physically and psychologically assaulted them over a sustained period, usually threatening that if the woman leaves, he will kill the children. Sometimes he does, and the woman as well.

If these abused women ever had any self esteem it has long gone in their struggle just to stay alive.

But hell, who cares? Much more fascinating to follow the fortunes of a savvy 25 year old whose boss was a tacky sleaze.