Health Reform: Where is it heading?

[noco]

Do a google search for "Australian health care reform" and you will find many papers, articles and submissions on the subject going back over a decade...this isn't rushed or new to the majority of the health industry, just surprising in that a Fed Govt has the guts to try and do something positive about it.

Health reform is a little like tax reform and emission's trading/global warming in that the right side of the Australian political spectrum don't know much about it and are somewhat surprised its on the Labor party agenda...that's what a decade in the Howard wilderness will get ya.

The Howard Govt buried all these issues preferring to put them in the politicly 'to hard basket' and move on to issues closer to there heart..immigration discrimination, industrial relations reform, introduction of a GST and supporting Hanson and the far loony right as a distraction from there own gutless, do nothing agenda.

Howard's greatest achievement was probably the Firearms law reform as it required political guts, just like Rudd's health reform also requires political guts, because success will be fairly easy and quick to measure...the ASF right should be all for this reform as its a huge political risk for Labor and could easily be the issue that sinks them in the election after next...if they get it wrong.

It is sad that you have fallen for Rudd's line of pretending to be doing something about Health reform. The average JOE BLOW with half a brain knows it is just a diversion away from the real failures of the the Rudd Government. Rudd certainly knows how to push your buttons old mate.

Rudd's 2007 pre election promise was to take over running of the whole hospital system in July 2009 if the states had not improved their efficiencies in surgery waiting time, emergency, mental care, the provision of the number of beds and more doctors and nurses. So why did he break his 2007 election promise? 10 + years ago the Queensland led Labor Government built a new hospital in Townsville smaller than the one they knocked down. Townsville's population is increasing 8% per year. Not very good planning at all.

Now please don't come back and tell me it's all Howard's fault, because you and I know it is, and always has been, a state resposibilty. The GST was to be the provider and was sufficient at the time, but unfortuneatly it is now not enough to cover the increase in costs of health care and one of the solutions is to increase the GST to 12.5%. But I can't see Mr. Rudd having the fortitude to do it.

 

[So_Cynical]

Now please don't come back and tell me it's all Howard's fault, because you and I know it is, and always has been, a state resposibilty. The GST was to be the provider and was sufficient at the time, but unfortuneatly it is now not enough to cover the increase in costs of health care and one of the solutions is to increase the GST to 12.5%. But I can't see Mr. Rudd having the fortitude to do it.

And that's my point..Rudd and Labor are going out on a limb that the Liberals & Nationals just weren't interested in, way to much political risk for them....takes real guts and visionary thinking to do what Labor is doing...if they can pull this off they could Govern for more than a decade and by then the NBN will be kicking in along with the Tax reform to come out of the Henry review out this month.

This could just be a game changing, visionary point in Australia's political, social and development history...looking big picture: what's Abbott and the Coalition hierarchy doing to win this coming election? all there offering is opposition, there outa ideas.

 

[Calliope]

Really the 1st part of reforming the health system is having a secure funding method, you might notice states are only talking about money and the method of funding not new beds etc.

Sure. But are we supposed to take on trust that juggling the funding around with smoke and mirrors tricks will translate into shorter waiting lists for hospital beds and elective surgery, and will it improve conditions in the wards for patients, doctors and nurses?

Billions have been thrown at the hospital system. Keneally says that NSW spends over a third of the GST on health now. The money just disappears into a bottomless pit of bureaucratic waste.

We have already seen that of the billions poured in the BER and home insulation, a large percentage of it disappears in graft, waste, lack of control and gross mismanagement.

Are you satisfied that the Commonwealth bureaucrats will get it right this time and give us an efficient hospital system?

 

[noco]

Sure. But are we supposed to take on trust that juggling the funding around with smoke and mirrors tricks will translate into shorter waiting lists for hospital beds and elective surgery, and will it improve conditions in the wards for patients, doctors and nurses?

Billions have been thrown at the hospital system. Keneally says that NSW spends over a third of the GST on health now. The money just disappears into a bottomless pit of bureaucratic waste.

We have already seen that of the billions poured in the BER and home insulation, a large percentage of it disappears in graft, waste, lack of control and gross mismanagement.

Are you satisfied that the Commonwealth bureaucrats will get it right this time and give us an efficient hospital system?

Calliope, this is history being repeated all over again. Labor Governments whether State of Federal just do not how to manage money without waste.

If Rudd does get his own way either by agreement with the states, a referendum or with constitutional powers which he can use to take over the whole hospital system, I just hope he gets it right. But with his recent performances, IMHO it will be a debacle and he will blame the states if things go wrong and that is why he has not got the fortitude to take over the hospital system completely like he said he would.

 

[noco]

And that's my point..Rudd and Labor are going out on a limb that the Liberals & Nationals just weren't interested in, way to much political risk for them....takes real guts and visionary thinking to do what Labor is doing...if they can pull this off they could Govern for more than a decade and by then the NBN will be kicking in along with the Tax reform to come out of the Henry review out this month.

This could just be a game changing, visionary point in Australia's political, social and development history...looking big picture: what's Abbott and the Coalition hierarchy doing to win this coming election? all there offering is opposition, there outa ideas.

I'm pleased you said 'IF' they can pull it off. You don't sound very confident about your spin doctor leader old mate.

 

[IFocus]

Sure. But are we supposed to take on trust that juggling the funding around with smoke and mirrors tricks will translate into shorter waiting lists for hospital beds and elective surgery, and will it improve conditions in the wards for patients, doctors and nurses?

Billions have been thrown at the hospital system. Keneally says that NSW spends over a third of the GST on health now. The money just disappears into a bottomless pit of bureaucratic waste.

We have already seen that of the billions poured in the BER and home insulation, a large percentage of it disappears in graft, waste, lack of control and gross mismanagement.

Are you satisfied that the Commonwealth bureaucrats will get it right this time and give us an efficient hospital system?

You misunderstand the policy on the table

Its not about the commonwealth running the health system it never has been.

Again the 1st step is to secure funding agreement between the states and commonwealth which is what all the argee bargee is currently about.

 

[So_Cynical]

I'm pleased you said 'IF' they can pull it off. You don't sound very confident about your spin doctor leader old mate.

I'm a realist (unlike so many ASFers)...and this its health reform and political bravery on a major scale, and Rudd has ownership of it so will get the kudos if it goes well and the blame if it fails.

 

[noco]

I'm a realist (unlike so many ASFers)...and this its health reform and political bravery on a major scale, and Rudd has ownership of it so will get the kudos if it goes well and the blame if it fails.

Now Cynical, the Victorian Labor Premier John Brumby has already found a $1.6 billion hole in Rudd's costing. He is going to recycle 30% of the states GST in which 3 states are reluctant to give up.

Beacuse Rudd let 9 months pass from his due date of July 2009 for a complete take over of the hospital system, he was pushed into doing something in 6 weeks on the back of an envelope with very little detail. He has bullied the states ie. if you don't agree with me I (Rudd) will take it to a referendum. As I said before, he does not have to go to a referendum because he has the constitutional power to take over the whole system. So why does he not do what he said he would do pre 2007 election. I thought you said he is a political brave man on a large scale!!!!! You know the old saying " no guts, no glory". He is afraid to do a complete take over because he does not have any confidence in being able to do it. He would sooner pretend he is doing something by recycling the GST. He now has an out to blame the states if it all falls flat.

Do you know how it is all going to work or will it be like Anna Bligh says, "we'll work our way through it all as we go". That's the reason why these Labor people get themselves in such a fix.

Everyone wants health reform, but it must be implimented with good planning and strong debate. If Rudd is going to be PIG HEADED about it, he will fail, full stop.

 

[So_Cynical]

Now Cynical, the Victorian Labor Premier John Brumby has already found a $1.6 billion hole in Rudd's costing. He is going to recycle 30% of the states GST in which 3 states are reluctant to give up.

Beacuse Rudd let 9 months pass from his due date of July 2009 for a complete take over of the hospital system, he was pushed into doing something in 6 weeks on the back of an envelope with very little detail. He has bullied the states ie. if you don't agree with me I (Rudd) will take it to a referendum. As I said before, he does not have to go to a referendum because he has the constitutional power to take over the whole system. So why does he not do what he said he would do pre 2007 election. I thought you said he is a political brave man on a large scale!!!!! You know the old saying " no guts, no glory". He is afraid to do a complete take over because he does not have any confidence in being able to do it. He would sooner pretend he is doing something by recycling the GST. He now has an out to blame the states if it all falls flat.

Do you know how it is all going to work or will it be like Anna Bligh says, "we'll work our way through it all as we go". That's the reason why these Labor people get themselves in such a fix.

Everyone wants health reform, but it must be implimented with good planning and strong debate. If Rudd is going to be PIG HEADED about it, he will fail, full stop.

noco with that post you have now made it clear to everyone that you have a right wing political agenda and no interest at all in genuine health reform..so in future threads please drop the pretence and just be upfront about your agenda.

 

[IFocus]

Now Cynical, the Victorian Labor Premier John Brumby has already found a $1.6 billion hole in Rudd's costing. He is going to recycle 30% of the states GST in which 3 states are reluctant to give up.

Beacuse Rudd let 9 months pass from his due date of July 2009 for a complete take over of the hospital system, he was pushed into doing something in 6 weeks on the back of an envelope with very little detail. He has bullied the states ie. if you don't agree with me I (Rudd) will take it to a referendum. As I said before, he does not have to go to a referendum because he has the constitutional power to take over the whole system. So why does he not do what he said he would do pre 2007 election. I thought you said he is a political brave man on a large scale!!!!! You know the old saying " no guts, no glory". He is afraid to do a complete take over because he does not have any confidence in being able to do it. He would sooner pretend he is doing something by recycling the GST. He now has an out to blame the states if it all falls flat.

Do you know how it is all going to work or will it be like Anna Bligh says, "we'll work our way through it all as we go". That's the reason why these Labor people get themselves in such a fix.

Everyone wants health reform, but it must be implimented with good planning and strong debate. If Rudd is going to be PIG HEADED about it, he will fail, full stop.

Either you are a Liberal party hack or naive on prime minister / states negotiations

 

[noco]

So Cunical and Ifocus, looks like I have hit a nerve with you fellows when you resort to personal attacks. That is a sure sign you are both rattled.

I don't belong to any political party and have voted Labor on occassions. For all you fellows know I could be Green, a Climate Sceptic Party suppoter or an independant supporter if I thought any were on the right track.

This is a debate about an extremely important situation involving health care and after listening to various medical academics and John Brumby I have come to my own conclusions about what is right and what is wrong.

You fellows seem to have a one track mind and that is what ever Rudd says, he must be right and everyone else is wrong. You are cynical!

 

[Julia]

Do a google search for "Australian health care reform" and you will find many papers, articles and submissions on the subject going back over a decade...this isn't rushed or new to the majority of the health industry, just surprising in that a Fed Govt has the guts to try and do something positive about it.

If the health care professionals are so au fait with what you suggest have been ongoing discussions, why are front line people like Professor Dwyer and Dr Deeble (the architect of Medicare) making their disapprobation so crystal clear? They have both indicated that what has been suggested will be at best counter-productive.
Then you have Roger Corbett, one of Australia's most successful businessmen, and a Reserve Bank Board member, telling us it would be a complete disaster.

If I have to choose an opinion to accept, then I'll sure as hell take that from these successful people, before that of a bureaucrat with no business experience whatsoever, who has overseen two of the most disastrous policies ever seen in Australia with the insulation and BER fiascos.

Health reform is a little like tax reform and emission's trading/global warming in that the right side of the Australian political spectrum don't know much about it and are somewhat surprised its on the Labor party agenda...that's what a decade in the Howard wilderness will get ya.

What absolute nonsense.
What is it with people who are so rusted on to their party political views that they lose any sense of objectivity?
And yes, both sides can be equally guilty of this.

Agree, to me looks more like Liberal Party members pushing the party line with the hate message. I say this simply because of the absence of any balance in the comments.

I don't think that's fair, IFocus. I'd be more than happy to accord appreciation to Rudd & Co. if it genuinely appeared the proposed 'reforms' were actually going to achieve any improvement in either patient care or healthcare staff stress. Being unhappy with suggested policy from one side does not automatically translate into support for the other side, for heaven's sake!
So far all I can see is a shifting around of who does what with what money.
Perhaps you could explain how this is going to actually benefit either patient care or staff stress?

I'm a realist (unlike so many ASFers)...and this its health reform and political bravery on a major scale, and Rudd has ownership of it so will get the kudos if it goes well and the blame if it fails.

I'm still waiting for you to explain the exact nature of these reforms and how they are going to benefit Australians?
Also, why is there so much urgency to have the States sign up?
Why is Rudd unprepared to release the Henry Tax Review before the States sign up to his health 'reforms'?

These are very reasonable questions, and do not mark me or anyone else asking them as 'anti government' because of being either an opposition supporter or simply a Rudd hater, as you and others have observed.

Since you and IFocus are obviously keen to see all the States sign up, then you should have no problem in explaining to the rest of us just what they will be signing up for, and why I or any other voter should be supporting whatever is planned.

If my understanding that what has been clearly suggested so far is a shifting of proportions of funding paid by the States and the Feds, and an assurance that this will result in better care for emergency departments, aged care, and elective surgery (note: no mention of mental health or dental care???) is incorrect, then I'm very happy to be corrected and to be informed about how Australian consumers of the health system will be better off.

And please don't ignore these questions a second time, while continuing to criticise those who are not falling over themselves with admiration for anything from the Rudd Design Corporation.

 

[Calliope]

Since you and IFocus are obviously keen to see all the States sign up, then you should have no problem in explaining to the rest of us just what they will be signing up for, and why I or any other voter should be supporting whatever is planned.

It is obvious Julia that IFocus and So Cynical are not taxpayers. If they were, they certainly wouldn't trust the Rudd government to be able to get anything right after all the scandalous and costly bungles they have made in the last two years.

They can't be trusted to manage anything, and why should they? They are all bureaucrats or ex-union bosses. All they can do is spend other peoples' money.

It is ironic that a person who calls himself So Cynical could be so naive as to allow himself to be so trusting of Rudd. who is such an obvious liar and fake. For a man who flaunts his cynicism on most other threads it is surprising that he is so taken in by Rudd's spin. Or is it just his left wing agenda?

 

[So_Cynical]

The sheer political naivety displayed by some people on this forum is absolutely stunning.

Absolutely stunning ...but hang on, maybe its simply that some people are just not used to a PM having balls and sticking his neck out, PM's are supposed to be meek and mild, go jogging on a Sunday morning, respect the status quo and take no political risks....deny everything with political risk and appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Health Reform: Where is it heading? LOL..its heading where the elected Govt decides to take it, that's what happens when you win elections...you get to decide stuff.

 

[Calliope]

The sheer political naivety displayed by some people on this forum is absolutely stunning.

Rudd with balls? Yes he is the master of balls-ups.
A whiff of of Rudd spin and your much vaunted cynicism turns to jelly.

 

[noco]

Without having a snipe at who is right and who is left, it comes down to the question set up by the Neilson poll today which indicated an average of 60% of the Australian population, including me, want health reform. The question was:-
"Do you want health reform".

Of course we all want health reform, but that poll does not necessarily give Kevin Rudd the right to think the citizens of Australia support his ideas about the way he wants to go about it.

The Premiers are going into the COAG meeting this morning not knowing how their 30% GST contribution will be distrbuted. There does not seem to be any detail to his so called plan. Even Cynical and IFocus can't seem to answer Julia's questions.

Most of the states say they can't wait for reform untill 2014 and even Rann from SA wants it to start in 2010/2011.

 

[Calliope]

Without having a snipe at who is right and who is left, it comes down to the question set up by the Neilson poll today which indicated an average of 60% of the Australian population, including me, want health reform. The question was:-
"Do you want health reform".

Of course we all want health reform, but that poll does not necessarily give Kevin Rudd the right to think the citizens of Australia support his ideas about the way he wants to go about it.

The Premiers are going into the COAG meeting this morning not knowing how their 30% GST contribution will be distrbuted. There does not seem to be any detail to his so called plan. Even Cynical and IFocus can't seem to answer Julia's questions.

Most of the states say they can't wait for reform untill 2014 and even Rann from SA wants it to start in 2010/2011.

Yes I am surprised it was only 60%. I have never met anybody who doesn't want health reform. It was however the wrong question.

If the question had been,

Would you trust this government to implement a cost efficient health reform plan?

Rudd would have got whacked.

 

[noco]

As pointed out before, the majority of Australian citizens wants health reform and I would say most people would agree the cost of health care has exploded, which means more money is required to fix a broken system in all states and territories.

We must all face reality, health reform is going to cost JOHN CITIZEN one way or the other, whether by direct tax of indirect tax. Unfortunately, no body wants to admit it.

Based on the 10% GST receipts for 2009/2009, which was something like $43.48 billion, an increase in the GST to 12.5% would have netted $54.35 billion in that same year; an increase in revenue of $10.87 billion. If this increased figure was included into the poole of 30% of the states contribution now under discussion, is it not a solution to the problem of more money for health?

Without bringing politics into the deabte, I would like to hear other peoples views on the matter. How should the extra revenue be raised?

 

[Calliope]

..but hang on, maybe its simply that some people are just not used to a PM having balls and sticking his neck out, PM's are supposed to....deny everything with political risk and appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Can you tell me what political risks Rudd what has ever taken? What courageous decisions? And he certainly appeals to the common denominator..those who thrive on his extravagant splurging of the taxpayers' money.

There was certainly no risk for him in switching attention away from all his failures by making health reform his central re-election focus, as today's poll shows

Perhaps you should change your title to So_Naive.:bunny:

 

[Julia]

I'm still waiting for you to explain the exact nature of these reforms and how they are going to benefit Australians?
Also, why is there so much urgency to have the States sign up?
Why is Rudd unprepared to release the Henry Tax Review before the States sign up to his health 'reforms'?

These are very reasonable questions, and do not mark me or anyone else asking them as 'anti government' because of being either an opposition supporter or simply a Rudd hater, as you and others have observed.

Since you and IFocus are obviously keen to see all the States sign up, then you should have no problem in explaining to the rest of us just what they will be signing up for, and why I or any other voter should be supporting whatever is planned.

If my understanding that what has been clearly suggested so far is a shifting of proportions of funding paid by the States and the Feds, and an assurance that this will result in better care for emergency departments, aged care, and elective surgery (note: no mention of mental health or dental care???) is incorrect, then I'm very happy to be corrected and to be informed about how Australian consumers of the health system will be better off.

And please don't ignore these questions a second time, while continuing to criticise those who are not falling over themselves with admiration for anything from the Rudd Design Corporation.

The sheer political naivety displayed by some people on this forum is absolutely stunning.

Absolutely stunning ...but hang on, maybe its simply that some people are just not used to a PM having balls and sticking his neck out, PM's are supposed to be meek and mild, go jogging on a Sunday morning, respect the status quo and take no political risks....deny everything with political risk and appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Health Reform: Where is it heading? LOL..its heading where the elected Govt decides to take it, that's what happens when you win elections...you get to decide stuff.

So Cynical, your post here in no way answers my questions. I can only assume you have no idea how the 'reforms' will actually benefit patients or staff, and that you are simply babbling your unthinking admiration of Mr Rudd without having a clue what he's actually suggesting.