Home Insulation Debacle

[Julia]

From "Counterpoint" on Radio National, satirist Patrick Cook's summary of Mr Garrett's performance is pretty funny.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/counterpoint/stories/2010/2833033.htm

 

[GumbyLearner]

"Pink Batts" are a specific brand of what is generically known as fibreglass batts. Pink Batts as such are manufactured in Australia (not sure if they are also manufactured elsewhere) whilst generic fibreglass batts are manufactured in numerous locations globally.

I don't know how much has been imported but I simply observe this. Prior to this scheme, I had never seen any imported fibreglass insulation batts used in an Australian house. "Pink Batts" are the best known local product, but there are others such as Bradford Gold Batts, Fat Batts and so on, all of which are locally made.

But now there's insulation from China and elsewhere being installed left, right and centre. Judge for yourself, but if we assume that the Australian manufacturers wouldn't have had a large unused production capacity prior to the government scheme then it is likely that much of the additional demand was met by imports.

The great tragedy for the Australian manufacturers is that they had a viable industry on an ongoing basis before government stepped in. Now demand for their products has fallen in a hole, replaced by imports filling broght-forward demand and now there's a halted government scheme plus a loss of public confidence in insulation generally. Apart from new construction, there's basically no market for insulation now - it sure hasn't done the legitimate installers and local manufacturers any good by wrecking the industry.

It's a classic case of government meddling messing things up. It would have been hard to create a bigger mess if they'd tried...

I'm a big fan of insulating houses generally - personally I'd regard a lack of it in a climate needing heating / cooling as a building defect. But like anything, it's only good if it's done with quality products installed properly.

Thanks for clearing that up Smurf.

Ok, I rephrase the question:

How many "insulation batts" have been imported to Australia that were made in the USA or owned by a US Manufacturer where they are made in China?

and another question:

How much of the payments for such imports were funded by Australian taxpayers dollars?

Maybe Joe Hockey or BJ could get the stats for us? Because Combet certainly will not, he's too pro-US manufacturing! ROFLMAO

 

[Calliope]

The Rudd government has been a godsend to rorters.

Ease of rorts shocked insulation installers

SOME insulation installers say they were shocked to find how easy it was to rort the government's botched $2.45 billion insulation scheme, with shonky operators claiming a $1600 or $1200 rebate for work they did not do.

There were few checks or balances built into the scheme, they say, and those making claims simply entered the details of a job into an online system without needing to lodge copies of a work order or the customer's signature.

The money just landed in their bank accounts -- whether the work was done or not.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/pol...ation-installers/story-e6frgczf-1225837515759

 

[Aussiejeff]

The Rudd government has been a godsend to rorters.

Ease of rorts shocked insulation installers



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/pol...ation-installers/story-e6frgczf-1225837515759

Fair suck of the sauce bottle, mate.

I tell you what, it's all good, mate.

And another thing, isn't that what Mr Market wanted?

Lots of people with extra stimulus to spend in this lucky country?

Your arguments gone up in smoke, mate. *poof*

Honestly, it helps working families too, mate.

Secondly, stop whingeing, mate.

and lastly, don't forget to Vote Labour.

 

[GumbyLearner]

Jobless swamp hotline after insulation rebate ends
TOM ARUP
March 10, 2010

AT LEAST 1500 people have lost their jobs and are applying for government training programs because of the sudden suspension of the $2.45 billion insulation rebate.

And in the first day of applications being open, 200 companies have contacted a government hotline seeking information about payments to help them retain staff until the insulation rebate restarts in June.

In the first indications of the full effects of the government's snap decision to halt the $1200 rebate scheme, a spokeswoman for the Minister for Government Service Delivery, Mark Arbib, has confirmed a flood of approaches for help.

The insulation companies and retrenched workers will now apply for part of a $41.2 million package announced by the government last month, including 7000 retraining spots and $4000 payments per employee for companies willing to retain workers.

Environment Minister Peter Garrett suspended the insulation rebate on February 19 after the deaths of four people working in the program and at least 93 house fires associated with incorrect installation.

Mr Garrett was later stripped of his responsibility for the program, which was handed to Assistant Climate Change Minister Greg Combet.

Mr Combet will give a speech to Parliament today outlining how he will restart the troubled scheme on June 1.

 

[bellenuit]

There was a mention on a Perth local ABC radio channel this morning that an electrician, hired to check on the safety of a house that had foil insulation installed as part of Rudd's stimulus, received an electric shock and ended up in hospital. It didn't say how serious he was.

There were no further details, but it makes you wonder how qualified/trained could these people be if they didn't take proper precautions when entering an attic that they knew could be dangerous. It is almost like someone lighting a match to see what he is doing when looking for a gas leak.

 

[Julia]

I'm not sure if it was the same case, but as I heard it last night on ABC Radio news it was 'thermal' insulation. Is that foil?

 

[WaveSurfer]

Holy bajeezers. I should watch a little more TV every now and then. My wife and I used the solar hot water rebate, but did get bats installed at the same time. Makes a huge difference and we're glad that we did it. They were pink bats installed by Solahart.

I think we're ok, but damn, damn, damn. How do I get this stuff checked? A qualified leccy? Kiddies in the house, so I definitely can't ignore this. :swear:

 

[WaveSurfer]

Phew..... MASSIVE sigh of relief. I reckon my heart rate hit 200bpm.

I just tore some out from the ceiling and tried to burn it. Definitely not flammable. It seems to dissipate and not melt into a liquid resin sorta substance. Down-lights are all well ventilated so I guess mine was done right. The black box thingies are all bolted to the pitch rafters so they aren't an issue.

Scared the living daylights outta me. Still going to get the leccy in, just to make sure.

 

[bellenuit]

I'm not sure if it was the same case, but as I heard it last night on ABC Radio news it was 'thermal' insulation. Is that foil?

I assumed he meant metal foil as that is the one that has been causing the shocks. I was half asleep when I heard it as I usually only listen to the radio when in bed. I think that is the same as thermal insulation, Julia, going by this ad......

http://www.wickes.co.uk/Thermal-Insulation-Foil-Roll/invt/210022

 

[Smurf1976]

Phew..... MASSIVE sigh of relief. I reckon my heart rate hit 200bpm.

I just tore some out from the ceiling and tried to burn it. Definitely not flammable. It seems to dissipate and not melt into a liquid resin sorta substance. Down-lights are all well ventilated so I guess mine was done right. The black box thingies are all bolted to the pitch rafters so they aren't an issue.

Scared the living daylights outta me. Still going to get the leccy in, just to make sure.

Sounds OK but get an electrician to have a look if you have any ongoing doubts. Better safe than sorry.

Assuming the material you have is the genuine "Pink Batts", it's a quality product that won't burn so no problems there. Just make sure it's not covering the downlights though - NOTHING should be in contact with those since even if the insulation doesn't burn, it would still cause the lights to overheat because they are designed to pass heat through their rear into the roof space.

The "black box thingies" you mention are the transformers which convert 240V mains power into 12V that runs the downlights. They should be secured but very often aren't.

 

[Julia]

Sounds OK but get an electrician to have a look if you have any ongoing doubts. Better safe than sorry.

Assuming the material you have is the genuine "Pink Batts", it's a quality product that won't burn so no problems there.

Smurf, does this also apply to the yellow/gold batts?

 

[Smurf1976]

I assumed he meant metal foil as that is the one that has been causing the shocks. I was half asleep when I heard it as I usually only listen to the radio when in bed. I think that is the same as thermal insulation, Julia, going by this ad......

"Thermal insulation" can mean anything that reduces the flow of heat. Could be foil, batts, foam, loose fill etc.

Foil - this is conductive electrically and is thus an electric shock hazard if not properly installed. It can be installed safely and is a useful product but as with many things, it can be unsafe if not used properly.

Batts and loose fill are also known as "bulk insulation" and are associated with fire risks if incorrectly installed and depending on the actual material used. Fibreglass, rockwool, polyester, shredded newspaper and wool are all used as materials for these - personally I don't like shredded newspaper or wool since both rely for their safety on chemical treatment which may not be properly applied.

Foam is in a somewhat different category and comes in either rigid foam boards (big pieces of polystyrene) or is sprayed on-site. Boards are OK if fire retardent and installed properly (not near downlights etc).

Spraying on-site is OK only if you get someone who really knows what they're doing since, due to the way it expands after spraying, an incompetent operator could cause some pretty huge problems and this is not unknown to happen in practice.

My personal opinion is use batts in the roof and walls, with foil directly under the roofing material being useful in hot climates. Foam is useful if you want to insulate under floors. Obviously what is suitable does depend a lot on the building and location but properly installed batts shouldn't cause any problems under normal circumstances.

 

[GumbyLearner]

Honestly this sucks.

The Federal Government have created a great marketing scheme that has essentially destroyed the earnings of those they are meant to represent.

**** politics?

 

[Smurf1976]

Smurf, does this also apply to the yellow/gold batts?

Bradford is the best known manufacturer of yellow / gold batts - "Bradford Gold Batts" but there are others too, most notably "Insulco Fat Batts". Either is fine and both have been in the business for many years. They are made from fibreglass - not pleasant stuff to handle but this material is inherently non-flammable

Any of these products made locally (in Australia) should be fine. It's only the cheap imported ones I'd be worried about since there's some uncertainty as to exactly what's in them.

I have yellow insulation batts in my roof (not due to the government scheme) and they are fine.

Main issue is to make sure they're installed properly - not covering downlights, extractor fans etc or right up against a chimney or flue. The batts themselves won't burn, but they will trap heat if over the lights etc which may cause other materials (eg the lights themselves, timber etc) to catch fire.

So in short, I wouldn't be worried as long as they're not sitting on top of downlights etc.

 

[WaveSurfer]

Sounds OK but get an electrician to have a look if you have any ongoing doubts. Better safe than sorry.

Assuming the material you have is the genuine "Pink Batts", it's a quality product that won't burn so no problems there. Just make sure it's not covering the downlights though - NOTHING should be in contact with those since even if the insulation doesn't burn, it would still cause the lights to overheat because they are designed to pass heat through their rear into the roof space.

The "black box thingies" you mention are the transformers which convert 240V mains power into 12V that runs the downlights. They should be secured but very often aren't.

Cheers for that Smurf. Much appreciated.

I did get an electrician in yesterday arvo and thankfully he gave it all the A.O.K. He said the job was done properly and that we had nothing to worry about in terms of the recent dilemma. He also mentioned that I should pop my head up every month or so to make sure that rodents/possums/etc.. have not moved/shredded them causing the lights to be covered.

The very few down-lights we do have (in our rumpus and lounge rooms) are all well clear of any bats (a good 600mm x 1m of space around them).

I had kept some of the original bags that held the bats and it is definitely the Pink Batts brand.

I guess as they say, you do get what you pay for. We didn't skimp on the costs to get it installed.

Thanks again mate.

 

[trainspotter]

It just gets better and better for the Rudd Government.

The opposition has accused Prime Minister Kevin Rudd of a cover-up following revelations his department was explicitly warned about problems with the government's home insulation program as early as February last year.

Minutes of a February 18 meeting in 2009 show the risk of electrocutions, house fires and quality concerns was raised with senior officials from Mr Rudd's department.

It flies in the face of evidence given to a Senate inquiry that Mr Rudd's office was never directly told about the possibility of fatalities or fires linked to the scheme.

Axed in February 2010, the $2.45 billion program has been blamed for the deaths of four installers and some 120 house fires.

Opposition environment spokesman Greg Hunt labelled it an extraordinary cover-up by Mr Rudd, who had never referred to the meeting, despite repeated grillings about what - and how early - he knew about the risks.

"The prime minister has misled the parliament about the extent of warnings he and his department received," Mr Hunt said in a statement on Thursday.


http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/7037405/rudd-accused-of-insulation-cover-up/

 

[Smurf1976]

Cheers for that Smurf. Much appreciated.

I did get an electrician in yesterday arvo and thankfully he gave it all the A.O.K. He said the job was done properly and that we had nothing to worry about in terms of the recent dilemma. He also mentioned that I should pop my head up every month or so to make sure that rodents/possums/etc.. have not moved/shredded them causing the lights to be covered.

No worries.

As for rodents etc in the roof, it's not at all uncommon for them to be there with or without insulation. Only yesterday I was at a friend's house helping put rat baits in the roof, behind the fridge, under the oil heater, in cupboards and the like as it seems that there are rat(s) in all those places starting to cause havoc - it/they went through the pantry the other night and also stole the easter eggs a few days earlier.

Certainly it's worth keeping a general look out for any sort of pest infestation in your home (and office etc) regardless of whether you own it or are renting.

Rats / mice will build a nest using whatever materials they can find and usually that ends up being something flammable like paper, grass etc. Needless to say what will happen if a rat chooses to build its nest right next to something that normally gets hot...

As for insulation, I was somewhat surprised to find that my friend's flat roof rented house built circa 1970 (and completely original inside - it's like stepping into a time machine going in there...) has two layers of insulation in the roof. Foil directly under the roofing iron plus blow in fibreglass as well. It's still costing $1000 a year to heat the place though so it's a pity there's no insulation in the walls and under the floor.

 

[bellenuit]

they went through the pantry the other night and also stole the easter eggs a few days earlier.

I tried to use that excuse last week but nobody would buy it.

 

[trainspotter]

Prime Minister Rudd’s has spent well over $1.5 billion insulating 1.1 million homes. He’s now going to spend several hundred millions more checking each roof, identifying the estimated 240,000 dangerous or dodgy installations, and ripping them out. He’s done something only to undo it again. Because money is spent making it happen and then reversing it, what’s plainly waste becomes economic wisdom at least in Mr Rudd’s current guise as a born again Keynesian. The home insulation programme, hastily conceived and incompetently executed, has degenerated into little more than a make-work programme: almost as futile as shovelling sand hills from one spot to another and back again; only marginally more useful than painting rocks white. Installing insulation only to rip it out notionally constitutes economic activity but is actually a parody of productive work.