Boat People

[mellifuous]

That (and the remainder of the post) could quite possibly the most inaccurate load of tripe posted on this thread thus far.

Any facts to add to appease the applaudits as well, or just more "brown people are bad, m'kay" type e-mail chains to post?

Hey, here's some figures given to me - if you show me that they're wrong then I'll take them off the site.

http://moneymagik.com/folly.php

I trusted the person who sent them to me .. maybe he's wrong.

 

[noco]

Hey, here's some figures given to me - if you show me that they're wrong then I'll take them off the site.

http://moneymagik.com/folly.php

I trusted the person who sent them to me .. maybe he's wrong.

According to Andrew Bolt those figures are not true. It's been debunked!

 

[mellifuous]

According to Andrew Bolt those figures are not true. It's been debunked!

ok.. what are the figures then?

where do I find them?

I couldn't imagine the refugees going without a place to live, food, communications, education, health care, a capacity to travel.. etc... etc..

 

[Buddy]

ok.. what are the figures then?

where do I find them?

I couldn't imagine the refugees going without a place to live, food, communications, education, health care, a capacity to travel.. etc... etc..

You can find the payment rates on the Centrelink website. The figures posted by mellifuos are not entirely correct. As they say there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. You can manipulate figures to tell a story.

The politicans may come out and condemn the emails and stories about refugees getting more than a pensioner and state that everyone gets equal treatment, which is trues. But................ in fact, refugees do get more.

Use an example of a "legal couple".
Assuming the pensioner satisfies income/asset eligibility, they couple get $506.50 each per fortnight (including supplements). "Moneymagic" is incorrect to say that the spouse allowance is $56/week, as if they are a "legal couple" then the spouse gets to full $505.50/fortnight. In addition there are potential pharmaceutical, telephone and utility allowances.

From what I can determine on Centrelink, the "refugee couple" get:-
a) Unemployment (Newstart allowance) $205.75/week each.
b) Rent assistance - because obviously they don't own a home, which is $151.26/week. It is normal/probable that the Australian pensioner owns their home, so they will not get that assistance. But if they did rent, then could get up to that amount.
c) Crisis payment, which refugees get but pensioners generally do not. Refugee couples would get a one off payment equal to 1 week's pension which amortises over 1 year to $9.73/week.
d) Now the question is - are refugees also entitled to the Special Benefit (which is equal to the Newstart allowance)? If they are, then there is an additional payment, each, of $205.75/week. This is the one I am unsure of, and Centrelink does not explain whether they get this, or not. But I bet they do get it.

So the total payment for a refugees couple is either $572.49/week, or $778.24 (depending on the answer to point (d)). Yearly, it is either $29,769 or $40,468.

A pensioner couple (own their home) get $506.50/week, which is $26,338/year.

In these calculations, I have ignored pharmaceutical, telephone and utility assistance because it is the same for both.

However you look at it, refugees do get more than pensioners (according to my interpretation of the Centrelink numbers). But I dont think "moneymagic" has it quite correct.

It's all very well for pollies to come out and say the story is a lie. But I say that if they are going to do that, then show us the "real" numbers. But they never do, do they?

 

[mellifuous]

You can find the payment rates on the Centrelink website. The figures posted by mellifuos are not entirely correct. As they say there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. You can manipulate figures to tell a story.

The politicans may come out and condemn the emails and stories about refugees getting more than a pensioner and state that everyone gets equal treatment, which is trues. But................ in fact, refugees do get more.

Use an example of a "legal couple".
Assuming the pensioner satisfies income/asset eligibility, they couple get $506.50 each per fortnight (including supplements). "Moneymagic" is incorrect to say that the spouse allowance is $56/week, as if they are a "legal couple" then the spouse gets to full $505.50/fortnight. In addition there are potential pharmaceutical, telephone and utility allowances.

From what I can determine on Centrelink, the "refugee couple" get:-
a) Unemployment (Newstart allowance) $205.75/week each.
b) Rent assistance - because obviously they don't own a home, which is $151.26/week. It is normal/probable that the Australian pensioner owns their home, so they will not get that assistance. But if they did rent, then could get up to that amount.
c) Crisis payment, which refugees get but pensioners generally do not. Refugee couples would get a one off payment equal to 1 week's pension which amortises over 1 year to $9.73/week.
d) Now the question is - are refugees also entitled to the Special Benefit (which is equal to the Newstart allowance)? If they are, then there is an additional payment, each, of $205.75/week. This is the one I am unsure of, and Centrelink does not explain whether they get this, or not. But I bet they do get it.

So the total payment for a refugees couple is either $572.49/week, or $778.24 (depending on the answer to point (d)). Yearly, it is either $29,769 or $40,468.

A pensioner couple (own their home) get $506.50/week, which is $26,338/year.

In these calculations, I have ignored pharmaceutical, telephone and utility assistance because it is the same for both.

However you look at it, refugees do get more than pensioners (according to my interpretation of the Centrelink numbers). But I dont think "moneymagic" has it quite correct.

It's all very well for pollies to come out and say the story is a lie. But I say that if they are going to do that, then show us the "real" numbers. But they never do, do they?

Yes, well, it would be nice if they simply came out and gave us the exact figures ..

and yes, we may as well discount the fact that these 'pensioners' worked all their lives to make this country what is for us today.

I guess they really don't deserve much more than a boat load of refugees anyway.

That's all I had to contribute on this point.

 

[staghorn]

Buddy,
Refugees definitely couldn't get both Newstart and Special Benefit - nobody does. One of the eligibility criteria for Special Benefit is that you cannot get any other payment from Centrelink - it is one or the other, never both. I'm not sure why you say "I bet they do get it" when a Google search would quickly reveal the truth.
Cheers.

 

[Julia]

Hey, here's some figures given to me - if you show me that they're wrong then I'll take them off the site.

http://moneymagik.com/folly.php

I trusted the person who sent them to me .. maybe he's wrong.

This rubbish has been doing the rounds of the internet for over a year.
See:
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/refugee-payment-hoax.shtml

It has already been debunked during the last month on this forum in probably three other threads.

 

[Mofra]

Worth noting that support given to refugees are done so regardless of method of entry, so they are not specific to "boat people".

In any case, whilst refugee status is being decided, they get no special assistance from the government (except if Rudd tries to play political handball with you obviously).

 

[Buddy]

Buddy,
Refugees definitely couldn't get both Newstart and Special Benefit - nobody does. One of the eligibility criteria for Special Benefit is that you cannot get any other payment from Centrelink - it is one or the other, never both. I'm not sure why you say "I bet they do get it" when a Google search would quickly reveal the truth.
Cheers.

Yes, OK, maybe you are correct. I was simply trying to interpret what Centrelink published. It's not easy trying to find out exactly what the rules are. I guess that's the big problem. It would be a change if the pollies actually came out with a plain language statement of exactly who get's what.
Nevertheless, from what I can understand from Centrelink, an "average refugee couple" get more cash than an "average pensioner couple". Isn't that the point?

 

[Happy]

Well, another boat is coming.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/23/2751273.htm?section=justin

It now appears to be “side” income for fishermen from India.

They bribe their way through Indonesia and if thrown to prison, facilities in Australia are much better that what they have home, so no worries for them it is a holiday.

And we pay the rest !!!

 

[Mofra]

Nevertheless, from what I can understand from Centrelink, an "average refugee couple" get more cash than an "average pensioner couple". Isn't that the point?

That depends - what is the average timeframe each couple receives the allowances? If a refugee couple stops earning the allowances after 6 months and starts paying taxes as income earners, then over the course of a year they may be tax-positive for the government.
Pensioners will drain government coffers for the rest of their life. I could start a rant about why we should raise the age the pension starts but that is not for thsi thread

 

[Buddy]

That depends - what is the average timeframe each couple receives the allowances? If a refugee couple stops earning the allowances after 6 months and starts paying taxes as income earners, then over the course of a year they may be tax-positive for the government.
Pensioners will drain government coffers for the rest of their life. I could start a rant about why we should raise the age the pension starts but that is not for thsi thread

Except that....some would say that pensioners have the right to a pension because of the tax they have paid during their working life, and what they have contributed to society in general. Refugess (boaties) have contributed nothing. Zip. Apart from the cash they receive, they are a drain on resources - navy, customs, police, immigration, the courts, etc, etc. This Australia sure is a golden honey pot, land of milk and honey.

 

[Mofra]

Except that....some would say that pensioners have the right to a pension because of the tax they have paid during their working life, and what they have contributed to society in general. Refugess (boaties) have contributed nothing. Zip. Apart from the cash they receive, they are a drain on resources - navy, customs, police, immigration, the courts, etc, etc.

a. Assuming the pensioners did in fact contribute.
b. Assuming the refugees don't become productive members of society (and reserch suggests they are more likely to succeed than not, in many cases far more than Australians who were born here).

This Australia sure is a golden honey pot, land of milk and honey.

Which is why so many do succeed, in business & in life - they are granted opportunities they normally wouldn't have in their homeland.

If you're worried about our levels of consolidated revenue, on facts you'd be trying to encourage immigration.

 

[Tink]

a. Assuming the pensioners did in fact contribute.
b. Assuming the refugees don't become productive members of society (and reserch suggests they are more likely to succeed than not, in many cases far more than Australians who were born here).


Which is why so many do succeed, in business & in life - they are granted opportunities they normally wouldn't have in their homeland.

If you're worried about our levels of consolidated revenue, on facts you'd be trying to encourage immigration.

Spot on Mofra

Couldnt have said it better myself

As if they sit there studying Centrelink pages - unbelievable

 

[pilots]

Spot on Mofra

Couldnt have said it better myself

As if they sit there studying Centrelink pages - unbelievable

Tink, last year I applied for a Commonwealth seniors health card, as a self funded retiree I could not get one. What was of surprise to me was that 60% of all the people who was waiting to be served was NOT from Australia. We are the land of milk and honey, and welfare.

 

[bellenuit]

The boat people is a complex issue and I can see the arguments from both sides. But what riles me is the hypocrisy of our leaders.

When that boat (can't remember the name) caught fire and sunk last year, Rudd & Co chastised those who speculated on what had happened before the police enquiry was finished. What happened was fairly obvious to all, but we had to wait 6 months or so for the official report. That was because the obvious answer didn't suit their agenda and they wanted to defer it as long as possible.

Then a few days ago when there was a riot in the CI detention centre, Rudd & Co. were out saying that it was not due to overcrowding even though the police had yet to begin their investigation. No waiting when it suits them.

 

[Julia]

As if they sit there studying Centrelink pages - unbelievable

Tink, have you ever had any extended contact with people claiming welfare benefits?
i.e. dealt with people who are part of multi-generational welfare families who have no intention whatsoever of making any contribution to Australia via the tax system or in any social sense?

Why should Pilots not feel resentful when he has presumably worked all his life to become a self funded retiree, thus not needing to rely on the taxpayer for his retirement years, only to be refused access to the meagre benefits provided by the Commonwealth Seniors Health Card?

 

[Tink]

Tink, have you ever had any extended contact with people claiming welfare benefits?
i.e. dealt with people who are part of multi-generational welfare families who have no intention whatsoever of making any contribution to Australia via the tax system or in any social sense?

Why should Pilots not feel resentful when he has presumably worked all his life to become a self funded retiree, thus not needing to rely on the taxpayer for his retirement years, only to be refused access to the meagre benefits provided by the Commonwealth Seniors Health Card?

Julia,

Of course I feel for Pilots, but I wouldnt be blaming immigration for that

There are plenty of Australians that have queued up in those offices generation upon generation, and no I dont know any.

As you said, its against international law not to process these people, be it plane or boat.

Thats the way it is with a treaty

 

[Mofra]

Tink, last year I applied for a Commonwealth seniors health card, as a self funded retiree I could not get one. What was of surprise to me was that 60% of all the people who was waiting to be served was NOT from Australia. We are the land of milk and honey, and welfare.

So we dictate our federal policy on you perceptions of the line on one particular day at one Centrelink office?

How do you know 60% weren't Australian? Seems quite rude to interview a queue over their country of origin and whether they have subsequently obtained citizenship. Dare I suggest colour was an issue?

 

[pilots]

So we dictate our federal policy on you perceptions of the line on one particular day at one Cent relink office?

How do you know 60% weren't Australian? Seems quite rude to interview a queue over their country of origin and whether they have subsequently obtained citizenship. Dare I suggest color was an issue?

What I saw was 60% would not have been born here, yes color, dress, smell, inability to control large number children, was only some of the things that gave me the belief they was not born here, I could be wrong. Now as to citizenship they may have that, good on them, but what gives me dysentery is the fact I have paid tax's all my life and are ENTITLED to NOTHING. They on the other hand get, a house, the list is NEVER ENDING.