When will Germany be forgiven?

[mellifuous]

I also remember Bruce Ruxton head of the RSL for many years could never forgive the Japanese after what he saw them do to Aussies in WW11 but subsequent generations get over it, they have to.

I met Bruce Ruxton in HK once and he really was a very genuine man.

A man close to my family (now deceased) hated the japanese until the day he died - he told me that he never a took a prisoner and that he killed many japanese.

I guess there would be many ex-soldiers who feel that way about germans.

For us, past wars should be history lessons we should heed. This crazy world has a habit of falling apart without notice to anyone.

If you've never been to a concentration camp it's worth going once.

I guess it might be interesting, but not as an inmate.

 

[Chris45]

Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........

If you've never been to a concentration camp it's worth going once.

Saw a photo gallery/memorial or something of Auschwitz in Berlin many years ago. It was horrific and to this day, it feels like I actually went there.

 

[Mr J]

For us, past wars should be history lessons we should heed. This crazy world has a habit of falling apart without notice to anyone.

The causes of the wars may make for better lessons.

 

[Shrewd Crude]

It is not possible to forgive Germany,
and the fact im very lucky to be here as I come from Jewish background...

Its also hard to forgive Russia....
After World War two Russia never withdrew its troops from eastern Europe...
They acquipied Hungary for decades as my countrymen were pillaged and tortured by these beasts...
we got the great escape, and came to New Zealand, where we have lived ever since....

.^sc

 

[Mr J]

Hatred breeds more hatred.

 

[greggy]

Hatred breeds more hatred.

Spot on Mr J. As mentioned in my earlier post, my grandmother hid partisans during WW2 and relayed messages for them. I remember her telling stories about WW2 and made it clear to me that she never hated German people. She only hated the Nazis.

 

[mellifuous]

Spot on Mr J. As mentioned in my earlier post, my grandmother hid partisans during WW2 and relayed messages for them. I remember her telling stories about WW2 and made it clear to me that she never hated German people. She only hated the Nazis.

Last time I read about it, the Nazis were Germans. Hard to look at the Nuremberg Rallies and think that the Nazis didn't have broad support among the German people.

People/Nazi/army - not much difference in my mind. Of course, after the war it would have been difficult to find a Nazi or Nazi supporter - they were all just German people again, apolitical and spending their time dancing around may poles and downing steins of beer.

Of course, it goes without saying that a percentage of Germans didn't support the Nazis but I'll bet that most were happy taking back the lands they believed to be theirs.

The lesson is that even a 'civilized' society can act in a murderous and destructive way - and Germany did just that.

It's not just jews that suffered, but so did gypsies, poles, slavs - even Germans who were born less than perfect.

Let's not forget that Germany tried sending some Jewish people to the US, and the US rejected them.

There's heaps of nasty things to discuss - but, probably better not to. It's enough to remember and to learn.

 

[Mr J]

People/Nazi/army - not much difference in my mind.

That's no more reasonable than suggesting most muslims are extremists. The Nazi party didn't even recieve half the vote, and I would guess that most who did vote for them did not hold extreme views.

 

[greggy]

That's no more reasonable than suggesting most muslims are extremists. The Nazi party didn't even recieve half the vote, and I would guess that most who did vote for them did not hold extreme views.

Right again Mr J. Many Germans were pretty much forced to attend these rallies out of fear. The Nazis also persecuted many of their own.

 

[Chris45]

I think that most Germans were quite horrified and guilt ridden when the truth came out about how they'd been duped by their leaders and the horrors they'd committed.

I was touring Germany with three friends in '72 and we stopped at a cafe for lunch. When we asked for the bill we were told that our bill had already been paid. It had been paid by a middle-aged German and his wife sitting at the next table who presumably had heard our English. Sadly they couldn't speak English and we couldn't speak German but we thanked them as best we could and I'd like to think it helped them feel better about themselves. That was just one of many good experiences I had in Germany. I like Germans.

I've never been to Vietnam but apparently the Vietnamese have been very forgiving of us for the horrors we inflicted on them.

Many victims of crime have found that hatred doesn't get them anywhere. Forgive and move on is what works best for them. I've got to admire them for being able to do that.

 

[wayneL]

It is not possible to forgive Germany,
and the fact im very lucky to be here as I come from Jewish background...

Forgiveness is more important for the aggrieved. Not forgiving will hurt you more than it hurts Germany.

But FWIW, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Every nationality/race is fully capable and guilty of atrocity... even Jews/Israel... even the English/English decent.

Need I mention the genocide of the American Indian, Boer War, Dresden, Palestine etc etc etc.

Should Israel be forgiven once the mess in Palestine is sorted?

I like Jews, they're great folks; so are Germans. But there are evil SOBs in both races. Best to get over it IMO.

 

[Julia]

I think that most Germans were quite horrified and guilt ridden when the truth came out about how they'd been duped by their leaders and the horrors they'd committed.

I was touring Germany with three friends in '72 and we stopped at a cafe for lunch. When we asked for the bill we were told that our bill had already been paid. It had been paid by a middle-aged German and his wife sitting at the next table who presumably had heard our English. Sadly they couldn't speak English and we couldn't speak German but we thanked them as best we could and I'd like to think it helped them feel better about themselves. That was just one of many good experiences I had in Germany. I like Germans.

I've never been to Vietnam but apparently the Vietnamese have been very forgiving of us for the horrors we inflicted on them.

Many victims of crime have found that hatred doesn't get them anywhere. Forgive and move on is what works best for them. I've got to admire them for being able to do that.

Great post, Chris.

 

[grantk]

Having lived in Germany for a couple of years I've had a chance to talk to many Germans about this. Up until the last football word cup being hosted in Germany, it was frowned upon to show much in the way of National support (flying a German flag for example). However the world cup seemed to lift a weight off the nations collective shoulders and most Germans seem again to be proud to be German, which was not the case in the past.

The one thing they should be credited with, is how open they have been with what occurred and how much emphasis they have placed on ensuring the message does not get lost. Concentration camps remain open, monuments to the dead are in every town and TV shows still run on the horrors that occurred. All sides commit atrocities in war, but Germany is the only country I have seen openly acknowledge them decades later.

 

[matty2.0]

Germans = Inglourious Basterds

according to some.

 

[wayneL]

BTW

If anyone is of English descent, there is a high probability of having a whopping big helping of Teutonic blood flowing through your veins. The royal family is German blood.

The Germans are our cousins.

 

[Hedders]

Having lived in Germany for a couple of years I've had a chance to talk to many Germans about this. Up until the last football word cup being hosted in Germany, it was frowned upon to show much in the way of National support (flying a German flag for example). However the world cup seemed to lift a weight off the nations collective shoulders and most Germans seem again to be proud to be German, which was not the case in the past.

The one thing they should be credited with, is how open they have been with what occurred and how much emphasis they have placed on ensuring the message does not get lost. Concentration camps remain open, monuments to the dead are in every town and TV shows still run on the horrors that occurred. All sides commit atrocities in war, but Germany is the only country I have seen openly acknowledge them decades later.

Good post! Having been to Germany/Austria a few times and gone through Dachau and Matthausen concentration camps, the Germans are very open about their past- it's there for all to see. I think the Germans live with their shameful past more intensely than we do with our historical treatment of Aboriginals for example. That's not to say we don't feel remorseful, but I think Aussie pride suffers less than German pride in daily life. Forgiveness is a real path to recovery and peace. Harbouring hatred will stifle any attempts to move on. I'm not sure any nation is in a position to point the finger- if forgiveness never happens, you can go further and further back into the past, during which time we'll all have stuffed up.

 

[Soft Dough]

I think the Germans live with their shameful past more intensely than we do with our historical treatment of Aboriginals for example. That's not to say we don't feel remorseful, but I think Aussie pride suffers less than German pride in daily life. Forgiveness is a real path to recovery and peace.

That is totally different. Australian aboriginals receive compensation if they make a claim, hence Australians are unwilling to admit liability ( as why should I be forced to pay higher taxes for decisions made by people 200 years ago, which were done in good faith and according to the law, both internationally recognised and locally recognised ). Stolen generation anyone?

As soon as germany starts paying compensation, then I'll say that they are more remorseful than Australians

PS I forgive Germany, even though my ancestors were displaced and traumatised by the experience.

 

[Riddick]

a couple of points to add to the discussion:

1. history is written by the victors. If germany had wont the war it would have been allied comanders at the nuremburg trials charged with war crimes for the fire bombing of Dresden amongst other things. many of the germans i have met are still incensed that this episode was conveniently forgotten.

2. There is absolutely no parallel between germany crica 1935 - 46 and the claiming of australia by british settlers. there is no legal parallel - see terra nullius - there was never any official government plan to wipe out australian natives and anyone with any experience (I worked for 5 years in the pilbara in wa) with Aboriginals will know that each language group mob sees themselves as a distinct group, ethnically diverse from other language groups. This is the diametrically opposed to the situation brough about by german governance in the 30's and 40's.

3. More Polish nationals were sent to concentration camps than strictly ethnic jews and a greater number of polish nationals were executed than ethnic jews. (not understating the jewish suffering at all)

I have had some long conversations with a survivor of the'final solution' who witnessed the mass execution of poles first hand, the vast bulk of them not being jews. (my partners father, a pole who was first placed in an internment camp as a young child after ss troopers killed his parents in the kitchen of their home in 1941).

 

[grantk]

As soon as germany starts paying compensation, then I'll say that they are more remorseful than Australians

Germany has been paying compensation since the end of the war

 

[Riddick]

Kath and Kim TV show when Kath derided SBS programmes with"Itler,Itler,Itler,Churchill"
The elephant in the room,not mentioned,was holocaust.
When the Jewish influence in the western media is diminished or fades then we might see less of the second world war.

some thoughts:

1. with no war shows, the history channel would be endless re-runs of shows about the roman empire.

2. shows about ww2, no mater how crappy and contrived are still far superior to 99% of the rubbish that is not about ww2.

3. We are not exactly inundated with shows about ww2 on free to air or pay tv. a couple of shows a week is not satuaration.