When will Germany be forgiven?

[johnnyg]

Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........

Interesting topic, both of my parents were children in Italy during the 2nd World War before immigrating to Australia in the 50's, my Fathers home town was leveled in a major battle.

Ive never once heard them speak badly about German people, one of Dad's close friends is actually German and they've been friends for a very long time.

 

[CAB SAV]

Were the Germans involved in death of Russians ?
My history isnt all that good.

Good point, most living souls would not know that 14 more miilion were killed than Jews. All about marketing.

 

[MrBurns]

Google Stalingrad.

In fairness, the number of Russian deaths was probably almost as much to do with Russia as it was with Germany. Not to mention, if it wasn't for Russia's approach to Poland, it may never have started.

I admire people who have an interest in history, it's a failing of mine.

 

[GumbyLearner]

Good point, most living souls would not know that 14 more miilion were killed than Jews. All about marketing.

Millions of Ukrainians too!

 

[MrBurns]

Good point, most living souls would not know that 14 more miilion were killed than Jews. All about marketing.

Now that is disappointing.......

I know that sounds like a politicians major understatement but there's no words to say what I really want to say.......

 

[TabJockey]

Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........

Interesting topic, both of my parents were children in Italy during the 2nd World War before immigrating to Australia in the 50's, my Fathers home town was leveled in a major battle.

Ive never once heard them speak badly about German people, one of Dad's close friends is actually German and they've been friends for a very long time.

You realise ofcoarce that Italy was part of the Axis of Evil against the Allies right?

 

[So_Cynical]

Were the Germans involved in death of Russians ?
My history isnt all that good.

Yep they sure were...but lets not talk about the katyn forest massacre where the russians murdered about 22000 Polish military officers, cops and intellectuals etc...all in cold blood, killed execution style same as what the nazis did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

 

[johnnyg]

Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........

You realize of coarse that Italy was part of the Axis of Evil against the Allies right?

Yes, but that doesn't mean that they supported the choices made by Mussolini. You can't tarnish people with the same brush, which is ultimately the point that Mr B is making at the start of this thread.

 

[Nyden]

Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........

You realise ofcoarce that Italy was part of the Axis of Evil against the Allies right?

The Axis of Evil ... I believe you're thinking more modern day
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_evil

Even now, for Bush to say those countries are evil is just insane. War is always a matter of dates, and perspective. One mans reason to kill another man is rarely any better.

 

[Fishbulb]

Germany's just a little sensitive about the whole thing. They were forgiven ages ago. Just don't mention the war and you'll be fine.

 

[Tink]

Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........

Forgiven, but never forgotten.

Not that I blame Germans (particularly the younger generations that were not even around), but I think it's important to remeber these things to limit the chances of them happening ever again.

If you've never been to a concentration camp it's worth going once.

Well said Doctorj

I agree that History should never be forgotten, I say that all the time.. It doesnt mean that we blame the people now for what happened in the past..

I know a few Germans and even lived there for a while, beautiful place and lovely people : )

 

[Mr J]

Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........

Interesting topic, both of my parents were children in Italy during the 2nd World War before immigrating to Australia in the 50's, my Fathers home town was leveled in a major battle.

Ive never once heard them speak badly about German people, one of Dad's close friends is actually German and they've been friends for a very long time.

Vets seem to vary widely in their opinions of their enemy. Some truly hate them, while others question why they were fighting each other, noting that on another day they may have been sharing a beer.

Were the Germans involved in death of Russians ?

The Germans invaded and captured most of the European part of the USSR. The Eastern front was a meat-grinder (the Allies had an easy time by comparison) and there were many attrocities on both sides. No-one is innocent in war.

 

[greggy]

Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........

You realise ofcoarce that Italy was part of the Axis of Evil against the Allies right?

Italy was part of the Evil of Axis because of Mussolini. Please remember that Mussolini stormed into power and was a brutal dictator. There were many Italians who were partisans fighting against the Axis of Evil during WW2. Many Italians also protected many Jews and partisan fighters during WW2.
My grandmother in Venice was given a medal for her protection of partisan soldiers during WW2. She put her life at risk on a daily basis. She used to hide them in the attic and also relayed messages.

 

[Who Dares Wins]

Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........

I think the 'official' move on from the war was during the 50th anniversary

hahaha

"Move On" is just a catchphrase for the dis-affected.

 

[wayneL]

Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........

My grandmother in Venice was given a medal for her protection of partisan soldiers during WW2. She put her life at risk on a daily basis. She used to hide them in the attic and also relayed messages.

In awe! I never cease to be amazed at what people did in that war. True bravery.

 

[MrBurns]

Re: When will Germany be forgiven.........

In awe! I never cease to be amazed at what people did in that war. True bravery.

I'll second that.

 

[BradK]

Interestingly, 1920's Germany, apart from the cluttered Weimar governments, was probably the most civilised European country at the time - leaders in philosophy, art, the theatre, literature, theology, science (Einstein was at Humbolt University).

What always amazes me is how a nation can turn from the heights of civil society and within about 10 years (1929 to 1939) turn into Jew-hating goose steppers, willing to commit all sorts of atrocities- you could refer to Daniel Goldhagen's Hitlers Willing Executioners. Its not enough to say, as the current Pope has, that the crimes were perpetrated by a 'gang of criminals'. It was national.

I guess the answer lies in the radicalisation brought about by the Great Depression. Why didn't other nations turn to dictatorship? Well, probably because the Germans had the bitter experience of the 1923 inflation (only 6.5 years earlier) still in recent memory.

Also, the propaganda was effective. Paint your slogans in big black and white. And often. The Nazi's also had its fair share of nutty underlings - Himmler (nuts!), Goering (I have no words), and Goebbels (nuts!) to back up Hitler. These guys would 'work towards the Fuhrer' (a concept developed by British historian Ian Kershaw) which suggests that they interpreted Hitler's vision in increasingly radical ways and tried to outdo each other for the attention of the Fuhrer. And when I say 'attention', I don't mean out of some need to be loved - but putting more elaborate and radical plans in front of the fuhrer meant more resources for your department. And it was all about access to the Fuhrer.

See, Hitler was in fact the laziest ba$tard you are ever likely to meet! Watched videos until 3am and bored the **** out of the dinner guests, and woke at about 1pm for a few hours paperwork before afternoon tea, dinner and more movies.

Now, let me turn to Bush and co. There is a rule on the internet that if you compare someone to Hitler than you immediately lose the argument - can anyone remember what it is????????? hahhahaha.

But, lets disregard that rule for a minute. I'm not suggesting that Bush was like Hitler, but I see alot of similarities between 1930s Germany and 2000s United States. The use of propaganda, painting big ideological ideas into simple slogans, the corruption of civil society, the persecution of those willing to speak out (not at the hands of the government, admittedly), but those Dixie Chicks sure copped it!

I think with the benefit of hindsight, we will look back on this war on terror with a great sense of shame. And in 70 years, Chindia will be asking, 'When will the United States be forgiven?'

Brad

 

[Mr J]

And in 70 years, Chindia will be asking, 'When will the United States be forgiven?'

I doubt it, since attacking a few smaller countries doesn't really compare to taking on the rest of the west and almost defeating it. China also has the invasion of Tibet, and by that time possibly the invasion of Taiwan.

I'm not suggesting that Bush was like Hitler, but I see alot of similarities because 1930s Germany and 2000s United States

It's a good example of propaganda and how easily people get swept up by emotion. It was also a time when the public relied far more on the radio and newspaper, making it far easier to control. Germany was subjected to years of propaganda, including staging 'attacks' to use for their case for war.

As for the Germans and Jews, imagine a situation that starts similarly to the Americans and the muslims. The public is bombarded with heavy propaganda, and the jews/muslims are eventually rounded up similar to the movie "The Siege" (which kind of fortold 9/11 a few years earlier). They start being shipped out, and most of the public supports it, no longer cares or are willing to look the other way. And now we have a group ready to be exterminated. We've seen many groups in history become the victims of propaganda, and how easy it is to spread hatred and indifference among the public.

There is a rule on the internet that if you compare someone to Hitler than you immediately lose the argument

Hitler wasn't any more evil, he just lucked into the right circumstances in gaining power. Millions would have been capable of any of his attrocities, so it's not actually fair that he's singled out. By doing so, we ignore of what we ourselves are capable of.

 

[Tink]

It's a good example of propaganda and how easily people get swept up by emotion. It was also a time when the public relied far more on the radio and newspaper, making it far easier to control. Germany was subjected to years of propaganda, including staging 'attacks' to use for their case for war.

As for the Germans and Jews, imagine a situation that starts similarly to the Americans and the muslims. The public is bombarded with heavy propaganda, and the jews/muslims are eventually rounded up similar to the movie "The Siege" (which kind of fortold 9/11 a few years earlier). They start being shipped out, and most of the public supports it, no longer cares or are willing to look the other way. And now we have a group ready to be exterminated.

We've seen many groups in history become the victims of propaganda, and how easy it is to spread hatred and indifference among the public.

Interesting concept and the reason we should never forget - History

How easy things can just move along..

We are lucky now with the internet, that we dont only feed on the tripe from the media..

 

[dbcok]

Kath and Kim TV show when Kath derided SBS programmes with"Itler,Itler,Itler,Churchill"
The elephant in the room,not mentioned,was holocaust.
When the Jewish influence in the western media is diminished or fades then we might see less of the second world war.