Fighting speeding fines

[Timmy]

Don't just cop parking and speeding fines, seems fighting them has a good success rate:

Motorists who appeal fines save millions:
almost a third of all drivers who argued their case were proven correct.

 

[freddy2]

Depends how much you value your time. Given the figures in the article the average fine is about $150, and 1 in 3 chance of success gives expected value of making an appeal $50. For most people it's irrational to appeal.

 

[Happy]

A lot of people complain about unfair fines, but when I drive just under speed limit there is virtually no car that would travel behind me and looks that maximum allowable speed is their minimum.

Most drive 5 to 15 km per hour above speed limit, hence $150 average speeding fines.

What I am saying: I think people do not realise that 10% speed limit grace doesn't apply any more and best solution to avoid fine would be to stay under the MAXIMUM SPEED LIMIT, I know hard.

Personally I think that Police is little bit desperate to issue fines as 5% to 10% error is logical, but if they don’t give an inch, what is the point in tinkering in danger area?

 

[Timmy]

Depends how much you value your time. Given the figures in the article the average fine is about $150, and 1 in 3 chance of success gives expected value of making an appeal $50. For most people it's irrational to appeal.

Expected value of avoiding fine .... $50

Expected value of not losing demerit points ... $500 (?)

Joy of sticking it to the man .... priceless

 

[knocker]

Well I got done a few years back doing 60 in a thirty construction zone. The country hick cop was after money. And he asked me why I was speeding. I said I saw the 60 kmh sign, which was within distance and started to accelerate. Then he asked do you work. I said sure I work.

In the end I told the Sergeant to go away and do something useful.:

 

[cuttlefish]

Expected value of not losing demerit points ... $500 (?)

I agree Timmy - its not the money its the points thats the problem.

I don't see how pulling people over for doing 5% over the speed limit is going to have any effect whatsoever on the road toll.


Also if traffic is flowing at speed limit+5% or speed limit+10% and one driver sits at speed limit-5% that driver is presenting a greater danger than the other drivers imo. (which is also why I find the speed restrictions for learners and p-platers on highways quite ridiculous and dangerous for those drivers).

The only way to succesfully address the road toll is to build safer roads - dual carriage ways, adequate distance and/or safety wires or barriers between traffic flowing in opposite directions, wider lanes, improved road surfaces and camber/gradient, better signage, better segregation of heavy and light vehicles, road side barriers to prevent vehicles leaving the road and hitting trees or going over embankments.

Add to that: safer cars, sensible and practical speed limits that allow drivers to use some discretion, better driver education, and law enforcement focused on removing dangerous drivers from the road, not on giving Joe and Martha a kick in the guts financially for taking the kids up the coast on a long weekend.

 

[jono1887]

opportunity cost of your time... it would depend on how valuable is your time..

 

[wayneL]

Guys,

If you really want to have fun with the authorities, there is arguably (VERY arguably) a big loophole in English common law, on which Oz law is based.

http://www.truthmovementaustralia.com.au/2009/01/liveinterview20091/

Also google "freeman on the land".

N.B. FYI only, I don't follow this course of action, but know people who do.

 

[Sunder]

Expected value of not losing demerit points ... $500 (?)

Be careful with this one, just because you get the fine revoked, doesn't mean the demerit points are also revoked. It can depend on why the fine was revoked. If it's a Section 10 for any reason (Offense proved, but no penalty applied), you still cop demerit points.

 

[Aargh!]

The only way to succesfully address the road toll is to build safer roads - dual carriage ways, adequate distance and/or safety wires or barriers between traffic flowing in opposite directions, wider lanes, improved road surfaces and camber/gradient, better signage, better segregation of heavy and light vehicles, road side barriers to prevent vehicles leaving the road and hitting trees or going over embankments.

I once believed this was the solution as well cuttlefish but where I now live I've seen that this is not the simple solution it seems. The roads here are fantastic, wide lanes, dedicated truck lanes, not a single pot hole, side barriers, separation of opposing traffic, yet it's close to the highest road deaths per capita in the world.

The MOST important thing is driver training, education and law enforcement. Even if the roads were crap people would adjust to the conditions and drive accordingly.

As for just going 5-10% over the limit... it's not ok. It doesn't mean it will take you 5-10% further to pull up. The velocity-acceleration relationship isn't linear but exponential.

 

[Mr J]

Guys,

If you really want to have fun with the authorities, there is arguably (VERY arguably) a big loophole in English common law, on which Oz law is based.

http://www.truthmovementaustralia.com.au/2009/01/liveinterview20091/

I've been listening to this out of curiosity. The bit about not having jurisdiction is mind-blowing if true, and it would seem to be if he's wiggled his way out of court. If true, why isn't this far more wide-spread?

Anyway, I'm up to the bit "They say I was speeding, and I remember when the pirate came up to me; when the pirate tried to first board my vessel...".

 

[RazzaDazzla]

Guys,

If you really want to have fun with the authorities, there is arguably (VERY arguably) a big loophole in English common law, on which Oz law is based.

http://www.truthmovementaustralia.com.au/2009/01/liveinterview20091/

Also google "freeman on the land".

N.B. FYI only, I don't follow this course of action, but know people who do.

This probably deserves it's own thread, anyway...

This is so bizarre! I came across a file called Esoteric Agenda last week via a comment on a mates Facebook page. I watched it out of curiosity and while I didn't agree with ALL of it, some of it did ring a few bells in my mind.

Then, this morning while eating my cornflakes I stumbled across this thread. I listened to the interview and I even found a copy of his book Classified (David Icke writing as Thomas Anderson).

I've had a flick through it... It's very similar to his interview but talks of a collapse of the world and the need for stockpiling of food for mid to late 2009.

I also looked at Wikipedia about David Icke; Colourful character... Particiuallry the part about Reptilian Humanoids.

Anyway, as I said, may be worth a thread on it's own.

 

[awg]

speeding fine = tax

at least in NSW, govt is broke

BTW, you can write to the Court, (instead of appearing in person, which is the waste of a whole day)..make sure your written submission is by registered mail

I got a big fine halved.

be aware , they can increase the penalty as well.

You need to base your submission on some good reasoning, obviously.

I dont think magistrates are an overly forgiving lot. ( I used to attend court as part of my job, the clients are mostly utter rabble)

I own very powerful cars, and used to drive fast, now I stick to the speed limit.... can go 0 to 60 as hard as you want though

I dont know what made me change, but now I concentrate all my efforts on driving safely

 

[Happy]

...

I own very powerful cars, and used to drive fast, now I stick to the speed limit.... can go 0 to 60 as hard as you want though

I dont know what made me change, but now I concentrate all my efforts on driving safely

Sometimes close shave gives wake-up call, sometimes loss of loved ones but there are probably thousand other reasons.

It would be nice if you could pin down the cause; this could help to save countless lives.

 

[ojm]

I own very powerful cars, and used to drive fast, now I stick to the speed limit.... can go 0 to 60 as hard as you want though;

Pretty sure in Victoria if you do that they will impound your car for hooning even if you don't break the speed limit but accelerate too quickly..

 

[Judd]

As for just going 5-10% over the limit... it's not ok. It doesn't mean it will take you 5-10% further to pull up. The velocity-acceleration relationship isn't linear but exponential.

Yep. The old kinetic energy to potential law. Double your speed, quadruple your breaking distance.

Have fun fooling around with this calculator (don't blame me for any results; I only used it, I didn't build it)

http://www.auburn.nsw.gov.au/inc/calc.htm

And this makes for an interesting read:

http://www.science.org.au/nova/058/058key.htm

 

[GumbyLearner]

This bloke tried and couldn't get away with it.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-94856360.html

 

[Beej]

A lot of people complain about unfair fines, but when I drive just under speed limit there is virtually no car that would travel behind me and looks that maximum allowable speed is their minimum.

Most drive 5 to 15 km per hour above speed limit, hence $150 average speeding fines.

What I am saying: I think people do not realise that 10% speed limit grace doesn't apply any more and best solution to avoid fine would be to stay under the MAXIMUM SPEED LIMIT, I know hard.

Personally I think that Police is little bit desperate to issue fines as 5% to 10% error is logical, but if they don’t give an inch, what is the point in tinkering in danger area?

How do you know the speedo in YUOR car is accurate? In my experience (checking cars with GPS and also involved with speedo calibration on dyno's etc in the past) most cars speedo's read 5-10% faster than the car is actually going at 100km/h. Especially so with Jap cars. So to someone with a calibrated speedo (or who knows what the error is), may be sailing past you while doing the actual speed limit when you are actually doing 10 km/h under and you don't realise it....

I have tested this theory many times by the way, driven through radar traps, past speed camera's etc at what I have worked out is the actual speed of my cars, even if the speedo says I am 10 over or whatever. Never got a ticket or seen the cops bat an eyelid when doing this.

PS: For those talking about braking distances and inverse square laws for kinetic energy/stopping distances etc, does that mean if I drive a sports car with superior braking/shorter stopping distances than the average car I should be allowed to drive at a faster speed, as it is just as "safe"????

Cheers,

Beej

 

[Happy]

How do you know the speedo in YUOR car is accurate? In my experience (checking cars with GPS and also involved with speedo calibration on dyno's etc in the past) most cars speedo's read 5-10% faster than the car is actually going at 100km/h. Especially so with Jap cars. So to someone with a calibrated speedo (or who knows what the error is), may be sailing past you while doing the actual speed limit when you are actually doing 10 km/h under and you don't realise it....

...

PS: For those talking about braking distances and inverse square laws for kinetic energy/stopping distances etc, does that mean if I drive a sports car with superior braking/shorter stopping distances than the average car I should be allowed to drive at a faster speed, as it is just as "safe"????

Cheers,

Beej

Well, I have my car speeds tested often enough to take in account wearing tyres, but why bother arguing if you and I know how people drive.

As to your superior brakes, just make sure car behind you is far enough.

 

[awg]

Sometimes close shave gives wake-up call, sometimes loss of loved ones but there are probably thousand other reasons.

It would be nice if you could pin down the cause; this could help to save countless lives.

I will have a go then.

1) Age

2) I work on vehicles for a hobby, this has given me a good understanding of dynamics of vehicle engineering & handling, in a way that average MV owners cannot know

3) There was one incident.... I was driving at the speed limit on the Pacific Hwy, (100kmph) it was raining, suddenly hit a large patch of oil, on a sweeping bend, in a front wheel drive car. Coming in the opposite direction was a Mack Semi.

If I had been going 5km faster, or had 1% less concentration or skill, I would have been dead meat.

This made me realise you can die thru no fault of your own.

The only protection against this fate is to develop superior defensive driving skills.

My sis-in-law has been hit 3 times by drivers running red lights

I dont proceed thru a green light till I have checked both directions first.

I maintain the maximum possible spacing from other vehicles

Use the vehicle in front to shield from head ons

there is so many things you can do to maximise defensive driving, too many to list