Qantas WTF?

[IFocus]

It seems like a life time ago now (1987) but after 12 months in South America flying dodgy airlines and traveling over land I headed home on a Qantas 747 plane out of LA.

The 12 months were at times a very hard slog and I was unwell from the rigors of my travels.

The sense of reconnection with Oz and the confidence of an Australian Icon were over whelming / emotional and hard to explain as I boarded the plane.

I slept like never before safe in the knowledge that this was the best airline in the world and that nothing, nothing could go wrong.

Now over 20 years later I watch with distress as Qantas continually comes up in the news with fault after fault.

I have spent a life time in maintenance of highly complex systems and clearly see that there are fundamental problems occurring in the maintenance systems at Qantas knowing that a disaster is near at hand.

Do you feel safe flying with Qantas?

 

[spooly74]

Re: QANTAS WTF

Anytime I've flown with them I've never had a problem or been delayed. Would never fly with Jetstar again though...fkin disaster!

Not sure how all this bed press is getting out. Apart from the blown o2 cylinder (and even then they landed safely), the other problems seem trivial.

Will keep flying with them.

 

[alphaman]

Re: QANTAS WTF

I have spent a life time in maintenance of highly complex systems and clearly see that there are fundamental problems occurring in the maintenance systems at Qantas knowing that a disaster is near at hand.

Are you suggesting we fly with other airlines? For me patriotism comes behind safety, but I really don't know if there are safer alternatives. Singapore airline?

 

[cuttlefish]

Re: QANTAS WTF

Definitely won't be flying with them again after my last experience - after sitting in the plane for over an hour on the tarmac while they tried some last minute repairs to the rudder, then sitting in the terminal for another four hours before they finally canceled the flight and then having to find a hotel and compete with other passengers for the limited rooms available before going through the whole baggage check-in, immigration etc. again the next day and finally getting home a day late.

The Qantas captain grinned from ear to ear the whole way through as he gave us each new update and acted as though it was all a big joke - and the story changed every time there was a new update - I didn't trust any of it.

The whole experience was exhausting and degrading - and a very unpleasant ending to a very enjoyable trip. I certainly don't intend to ever set foot in a Qantas plane again.

 

[agro]

it seems to me that Qantas are trying to build up their reputation again with their A380 advertisement i notice..


JetStar is a joke...


Virgin Blue any day !

 

[Naked shorts]

Re: QANTAS WTF

Definitely won't be flying with them again after my last experience - after sitting in the plane for over an hour on the tarmac while they tried some last minute repairs to the rudder, then sitting in the terminal for another four hours before they finally canceled the flight and then having to find a hotel and compete with other passengers for the limited rooms available before going through the whole baggage check-in, immigration etc. again the next day and finally getting home a day late.

The Qantas captain grinned from ear to ear the whole way through as he gave us each new update and acted as though it was all a big joke - and the story changed every time there was a new update - I didn't trust any of it.

Did they even pay for your accommodation?

 

[Smurf1976]

I too have a background in the maintenance of things (not aircraft however) and what's going on with Qantas does worry me somewhat.

There are some situations where maintenance is pointless. If there's no real consequence of failure and replacement when it occurs will be quick and easy then there's not much point in regular maintenance. Lots of examples there.

But that's not the general rule and I'd be surprised if it ever is a rational thing to do in aviation. You inspect and replace things before they actually fail, that's the whole point. And you know from specifications and experience when things need to be inspected and when they are likely to fail. There will always be exceptions, but in general that's how it works.

My best guess, and it is only my guess, as to what's going on at Qantas is one of these two things:

Scenario A:

Maintenance is being done "properly" but there are errors in terms of what is being done.

1. They have a maintenance regime either based totally on manufacturer specifications at the time of aircraft purchase (ignoring all operating experience since purchase) or it is based on aircraft of a certain maximum age or flown under certain conditions.

2. The actual aircraft they are flying either have maintenance requirements that were not intended by the manufacturer and thus aren't included in original maintenance specifications or the aircraft have exceeded the design age of the maintenance regime or are being flown under operating conditions (for example, higher speed or shorter average trips) which are different to those assumed by the maintenance regime.

Scenario B:

Outright cost cutting and not following required maintenance proceedures in line with the age and condition of the aircraft.

If it's Scenario A then it could be fixed by updated proceedures and replacing any aircraft which have reached the end of their economic life.

If it's Scenario B then a serious incident (quite likely resulting in loss of life) is inevitable at some point and it's luck and nothing else that has prevented it happening already.

My personal suspicion, and it is only a suspicion, is that the underlying issue is the aircraft are now older than was planned for in the maintenance regime. This may be to the point that maintenance is no longer economic (ie cheaper to scrap the planes) but these aircraft are being kept in service due to delays or other problems in obtaining replacements. This is only speculation on my part but it's the most likely explanation in my opinion.

 

[CanOz]

After my 2nd last trip back to Oz, with the return tickets i had to use, i decided not to fly Qantas international again if i could avoid it. Since that decision i have flown Singapore Airlines, and it has changed my outlook on flying.

Also, China Southern is miles ahead on Qantas for service. Qantas has entered the service realm of Air China.

Cheers,


CanOz

 

[IFocus]

I too have a background in the maintenance of things (not aircraft however) and what's going on with Qantas does worry me somewhat.

There are some situations where maintenance is pointless. If there's no real consequence of failure and replacement when it occurs will be quick and easy then there's not much point in regular maintenance. Lots of examples there.

But that's not the general rule and I'd be surprised if it ever is a rational thing to do in aviation. You inspect and replace things before they actually fail, that's the whole point. And you know from specifications and experience when things need to be inspected and when they are likely to fail. There will always be exceptions, but in general that's how it works.

My best guess, and it is only my guess, as to what's going on at Qantas is one of these two things:

Scenario A:

Maintenance is being done "properly" but there are errors in terms of what is being done.

1. They have a maintenance regime either based totally on manufacturer specifications at the time of aircraft purchase (ignoring all operating experience since purchase) or it is based on aircraft of a certain maximum age or flown under certain conditions.

2. The actual aircraft they are flying either have maintenance requirements that were not intended by the manufacturer and thus aren't included in original maintenance specifications or the aircraft have exceeded the design age of the maintenance regime or are being flown under operating conditions (for example, higher speed or shorter average trips) which are different to those assumed by the maintenance regime.

Scenario B:

Outright cost cutting and not following required maintenance proceedures in line with the age and condition of the aircraft.

If it's Scenario A then it could be fixed by updated proceedures and replacing any aircraft which have reached the end of their economic life.

If it's Scenario B then a serious incident (quite likely resulting in loss of life) is inevitable at some point and it's luck and nothing else that has prevented it happening already.

My personal suspicion, and it is only a suspicion, is that the underlying issue is the aircraft are now older than was planned for in the maintenance regime. This may be to the point that maintenance is no longer economic (ie cheaper to scrap the planes) but these aircraft are being kept in service due to delays or other problems in obtaining replacements. This is only speculation on my part but it's the most likely explanation in my opinion.

Smurf we both know that there are many failure modes and various strategies to to negate their effects.

The aircraft industry led maintenance practices world wide when it was realized changing bits out is not always the answer as some components have a bath tub cure failure mode etc.

But there is also the iceberg principle, the many basic faults that we see through the media (preventable through basic systems that I see) hide underlying basic structural problems that will lead to a major issue eg that's the bit you cannot see.

What I think is saving Qantas so far is the fact aircraft have many backup systems but when an aircraft taxis for the run way with a faulty wing flap then that spells failure of the basics.

 

[Prospector]

Re: QANTAS WTF

Anytime I've flown with them I've never had a problem or been delayed. Would never fly with Jetstar again though...fkin disaster! Not sure how all this bed press is getting out. Apart from the blown o2 cylinder (and even then they landed safely), the other problems seem trivial.
.

Consider yourself lucky then. Hubby flies interstate or even overseas at least once a week now. In the past four weeks, every flight except one has been delayed. We are talking eight flights. Not by ten minutes, but by an hour or more. It is so bad now, that the only time he texts me is when the flight is on time!

Their customer service leaves much to be desired.

Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific are way better.

 

[hotbmw]

ive never flown with qantas. i have flown with thai air maybe 8 times in the past 3 years and they are wonderful. never had a delay or scare ever.

 

[cuttlefish]

Re: QANTAS WTF

Did they even pay for your accommodation?

They did pay for the accomodation. For first/business class and people with young children (we fell into this latter category) they also supposedly organised rooms. I'm not sure what happened to the rest of the economy class passengers - some may even have slept at the airport. When we got to the hotel they didn't have knowledge of the bookings, and people were literally crowding the hotel front desk to compete for rooms. Many ended up sleeping in the foyer. (We were lucky that our shuttle bus happened to be the first one there). Other people ended up at hotels hours away from the airport and didn't get into their rooms until 3am or later.

I'm not sure why the captain found it all so amusing - probably because he knew he was staying in a 5 star hotel at the airport that night - and maybe he thought that the fact Qantas was paying for the rooms was something we should be grateful for - I would instead have been grateful to not have the experience we went through and getting home on time in an aircraft that felt safe instead.

Something my wife noticed was that on the flight the next day, on the same plane, which we assumed had been repaired, nobody ever actually stated that the problem had been fixed. I can't imagine that they would have flown without fixing the problem but it was an interesting observation that it was not explicitly mentioned.

 

[xyzedarteerf]

Qantas has entered the service realm of Air China.

Cheers,

CanOz

ahh yes and who can forget this crazy ad with a drunk pilot landing.

 

[Awesomandy]

A mate of mine used to fly between Aust and Shanghai regularly, and he flew on Qantas only. Every single one of his flights were delayed. As for me, I never flew with Qantas again after the attempted crash landing in Tokyo a few years ago - they seemed to lack the common sense that landing a 747 with gusty 50 knots cross-wind is not a good idea.

Jetstar international is surprisingly good though. At least the A330s are very new - these are great planes to fly on.

 

[Sunder]

I have serveral theories, none of which have any proof:

1. After the first major incident, the media is pouncing on ANY negative event, no matter how routine or trivial.

2. Qantas have outsourced their maintenance to overseas contractors which are of lower quality.

3. As a result of the outsourcing, LOCAL maintenance staff are less engaged and happy employees, are either being neglectful or even intentionally careless with repairs. As an conspiratal expansion to this, I wouldn't put it past some union members to intentionally sabotage non-life threatening systems in order to be able to point the finger at foreign maintenance contractors.

4. Qantas are just having a **** run of luck.

Part of me likes 3 the best. The rest of me thinks 1 and 4 are most likely.

 

[spooly74]

Re: QANTAS WTF

Consider yourself lucky then. Hubby flies interstate or even overseas at least once a week now. In the past four weeks, every flight except one has been delayed. We are talking eight flights. Not by ten minutes, but by an hour or more. It is so bad now, that the only time he texts me is when the flight is on time!

Their customer service leaves much to be desired.

Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific are way better.

Jeez, it would seem that way by the responses on the thread ... next time you can all fly with me
Ditto Singapore Airlines btw.

What I think is saving Qantas so far is the fact aircraft have many backup systems but when an aircraft taxis for the run way with a faulty wing flap then that spells failure of the basics.

Not necessarily so.
The flaps are only used for the final few minutes of landing and the first minute of take off. Once the plane lands all flaps are retracted for refuelling and unloading, so any possible damage (say a bird strike) would only be visible once the plane began to taxi out again and prepared for take off.

 

[Kremmen]

Do you feel safe flying with Qantas?

I drive a car. Driving on the road is 20 times more dangerous per km than flying, so differences between airlines are of minimal importance. I avoid flying Qantas internationally as their frequent flyer scheme is totally uncompetitive with other airlines, making them effectively far more expensive.

 

[Smurf1976]

I2. Qantas have outsourced their maintenance to overseas contractors which are of lower quality.

Outsourcing is a sure fire way to end up with crap equipment even if the contractor is just down the road.

Bottom line is they'll all cut corners since the contractor and especially their employees have now "ownership" of the work.

 

[trading_rookie]

Aussie airline industry has gotta suck at the moment, cheap dollar would surely have an impact on the number flying OS, record fuel prices not that long ago, and as soon as the market recovers slightly like it did today, we see a price spike in the cost of fuel per barrel, and Qantas shares down.

Is it any wonder then to cut cost they outsource maintenance OS...wouldn't be surprised if some scheduled maintenance is delayed to keep the books in the black.

Reminds me of that episode of Crash Investigations where a US Airline was in
chapter 11, Boeing sent out a memo advising all airlines with a certain class
of Boeing aeroplane that a faulty part would need replacement. The replacement part cost $10, yet the time for maintenance would cost an airline alot more in lost revenue...especially one desperately trying to keep itself from bankruptcy. No prizes for guessing which disastrous option the airline took.

Speaking of airlines, I hate Air NZ, firstly for it's involvement in the
demise of my favourite national carrier Ansett, then for me losing all my
Altitude points.

 

[cuttlefish]

More Qantas dramas. It appears the denial is well and truly entrenched at a corporate level. Oh no ... its not a maintenance issue.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/travel/midair-drama-on-qantas-flight/2008/11/28/1227491829933.html


Current management is destroying a national icon. At this rate I can't see this airline being in business in 3 years time.

It also worries me that one of these planes is going to come down at this rate - these aren't minor issues and nobody appears to be acknowledging and addressing that there is a serious problem with their maintenance and safety regime. I don't know where the regulators are or what they are doing but there don't seem to be any red flags coming up anywhere.