Should Australia become a Republic?

[Superfly]

Much more important issues going on, but Rudd seems to be pushing this... is it a cover a take attention away from any future poor performance by his Labour government... like the Koyoto signing... lots of noise and no change after signing it, they can't even organise a national ban on plastic bags.. but lets talk about a Republic..!!

 

[Lucky_Country]

Re: Should Australia become a Republic

The time is right to stand alone !

 

[wayneL]

If yes, the question becomes - "what sort of republic"?

This was the stumbling block last time. The model presented was rejected, not because people wanted to retain the constitutional monarchy, but because the model proposed was bollox, concentrating power in the wrong hands.

So a better question is - What sort of republic should Australia become?

 

[Superfly]

Re: Should Australia become a Republic

No change to the flag... No Republic... Rudd should promote Anzac day and maybe make the another terrible event that was the fall of Singapore a national holiday as well... Australia has a history, be it short...

Travel around Australia and rarely do you see a Australian flag flying...compared to many of our neighbours who are proud of their flag and history...

 

[2020hindsight]

yes to republic.
simple as possible, role of President comparable to the current GG.
who decides the President? - a team of voted-in eminent persons maybe? - and then I guess you ask, why not make this by a joint sitting of parliament ?
(perhaps towards the end of their own term, rather than at the beginning )

here's a flag as well

 

[2020hindsight]

Re: Should Australia become a Republic

...Rudd should promote Anzac day and maybe make the another terrible event that was the fall of Singapore a national holiday as well... Australia has a history, be it short... ...

I guess we could celebrate the first occasion we said "no" to the poms ..

Curtin bringing the troops home (rather than to Burma).
(but careful Superfly - Curtin was another of those communists remember )

"Though Curtin's desire to overrule Churchill 'irked the Brits', he 'stood tall in the eyes of all thinking Australians, and the troops came home".

PS I wonder what Curtin would have voted on this thread - independence from Britain maybe ?

Curtin's insistence that Australian troops return home was one symbol of Australia's changed relationship with the UK, but another more important change was the removal of the Australian land forces from British command. Curtin's decision to use an American, General MacArthur, to oversee Australian land troops could be seen as a clever ploy to gain direct links to the US high command that he would not have otherwise had.

In hindsight, bringing home the troops of Australia's 6th and 7th Division was in Australia's best interests because otherwise those troops would have been lost to Japanese prison camps like those of Australia's 8th Division. Though Curtin's desire to overrule Churchill 'irked the Brits'1, he 'stood tall in the eyes of all thinking Australians, and the troops came home.'2

 

[2020hindsight]

PS If it wasn't for venetian blinds, it would be curtains for all of us

and
If it wasn't for Curtin, it would be curtains for all of us (as well)

PS I'm sure you'll recall that Menzies wasn't up to the task of leading us through the war
http://john.curtin.edu.au/ww2leaders/politics.html

The wartime prime ministership of Robert Menzies was bedevilled with party political difficulties from the outset. These dated back to events even before he succeeded to the position in April 1939 and his administration came to an end when an internal party revolt forced his resignation.

By contrast, Curtin, although he became party leader at a time when his party was deeply divided, was able to nurture party unity before a parliamentary vote made him the last person to date to become Prime Minister of Australia in the wake of a successful no confidence motion in the House of Representatives.

Furthermore, within two years he had secured a dominant position electorally and within the party despite strong opposition from at least one powerful press baron. Subsequently, despite the setback of the 1944 referendum, it was only ill health that prevented him from continuing to dominate his political opponents and the electorate until his death in July 1945.

 

[juw177]

Oh dear. Another another quality thread by Superfly defending all things right wing.

 

[2020hindsight]

btw, Menzies was able to use his time in opposition during the war to sow the seeds of the Liberal Party.

this was incidentally after he had visited Germany in 1938 and had "expressed his admiration for the regime".

According to wiki, there was even speculation (albeit disputed by other historians) that he really wanted to be PM of Britain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Menzies

He did his best to rally the country, but the bitter memories of the disillusionment which followed the First World War made this difficult, and the fact that Menzies had not served in that war and that as Attorney General and Deputy Prime Minister, Menzies had made an official visit to Germany in 1938 and had expressed his admiration for the regime undermined his credibility. At the 1940 election, the UAP was nearly defeated, and Menzies' government survived only thanks to the support of two independent MPs. The Australian Labor Party, under John Curtin, refused Menzies's offer to form a war coalition.

In 1941 Menzies spent months in Britain discussing war strategy with Winston Churchill and other leaders, while his position at home deteriorated. The Australian historian David Day has suggested that Menzies hoped to replace Churchill as British Prime Minister, and that he had some support in Britain for this. Other Australian writers, such as Gerard Henderson, have rejected this theory.

When Menzies came home, he found he had lost all support, and was forced to resign, first, on 28 August, as Prime Minister, and then as UAP leader. The Country Party leader, Arthur Fadden, became Prime Minister. Menzies was very bitter about what he saw as this betrayal by his colleagues, and almost left politics.

Return to power
Labor came to power later in October 1941 under John Curtin, following the defeat of the Fadden government in Parliament. In 1943 Curtin won a huge election victory. During 1944 Menzies held a series of meetings at 'Ravenscraig' an old homestead in Aspley to discuss forming a new anti-Labor party to replace the moribund UAP. This was the Liberal Party, which was launched in early 1945 with Menzies as leader

Meanwhile these commentaries on Curtins time in office ( and he died in harness - i.e. the stress killed him remember. )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Curtin

General Douglas MacArthur said that Curtin was "one of the greatest of the wartime statesmen".[2]

His Prime Ministerial predecessor, Arthur Fadden of the Country Party wrote: "I do not care who knows it but in my opinion there was no greater figure in Australian public life in my lifetime than Curtin."

 

[2020hindsight]

Re: Should Australia become a Republic

I guess we could celebrate the first occasion we said "no" to the poms ..

Then again we already have a holiday on 26 Dec

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Curtin

... the Pacific War broke out. Curtin took several crucial decisions. On 26 December, the Melbourne Herald published a New Year's message from Curtin, who wrote: "without any inhibitions of any kind, I make it clear that Australia looks to America, free of any pangs as to our traditional links or kinship with the United Kingdom."

This was received badly in Australia, the UK and the U.S.;[5] it angered Winston Churchill, and President Roosevelt said it "smacked of panic". `The article nevertheless achieved the effect of drawing attention to the possibility that Australia would be invaded by Japan.

 

[2020hindsight]

menzies (on the queen) : "I did but see her passing by, and I shall love her till I die"
the queen (on rudd) : refer cartoon

 

[Nyden]

No, just no. Ugh, simply no :

What is the point? It's painfully obvious that it's only of ceremonial consequence; our connection to the old country, that is.

Why change it? Will we reap any benefits of becoming a republic? More money? Will our military improve? Will my life change? Will any of yours? What will happen though, is a bunch of new expenditures! New money being made, new documents / constitutions being written, new uniforms, heck - wouldn't we even need a new flag? Holding the referendum wouldn't be cheap, either.

Tom, Dick, & Harry certainly don't care enough about it ... although, I'm sure if put up to vote in recent years, blind patriotism may be enough to get it through, sigh

I do realise it probably wouldn't cost all that much, but once again, I pose the question of why? I rather enjoy our ties to the monarchy, & I believe such historical connections are important for long-term stability of friendship (alliances).

 

[Whiskers]

Re: Should Australia become a Republic

Travel around Australia and rarely do you see a Australian flag flying...compared to many of our neighbours who are proud of their flag and history...

Since when does not plastering the flag over everything equate to not being proud of our country?

Most of the (excessive) flag waving I've seen is related to fanaticism... not pride.

 

[Whiskers]

I do realise it probably wouldn't cost all that much, but once again, I pose the question of why? I rather enjoy our ties to the monarchy, & I believe such historical connections are important for long-term stability of friendship (alliances).

That's true, but consider it like growing up and getting married.

One's centre of focus changes a bit, but one still recognises and values one's family roots.

 

[2020hindsight]

Re: Should Australia become a Republic

1. Since when does not plastering the flag over everything equate to not being proud of our country?

2. Most of the (excessive) flag waving I've seen is related to fanaticism... not pride.

1. agreed - mind you, there is invariably a lot of flagwaving in repressed countries where the rent-a-crowds are forced to turn up.

2. fanaticism sure but also (sometimes) compulsion

Meanwhile
Anthem (Recording Season 1983)
"when no flag flew when no army stood my land was born"
"my land's only borders lie around my heart"

 

[Nyden]

That's true, but consider it like growing up and getting married.

One's centre of focus changes a bit, but one still recognises and values one's family roots.

Yes, but; this isn't like growing up, & getting married? Marriage has it's advantages, as does growing up - freedom, sex, financial benefits ... I see marriage as more of an investment, & anything that has detrimental consequences without benefit (or long term returns) frankly isn't worth it. An example would be; I wouldn't marry a penniless, gambling, drug addict - too many liabilities, too few benefits.

Same situation here; lots of costs, too few benefits?

There's a reason religion has pride down as a sin. Too much pride for country can create disbelief that it's capable of doing wrong ... much like what happened in the US, before the people started becoming ashamed of their president.


... Just because you move out of home, doesn't mean you go out, & change your surname, does it?

 

[2020hindsight]

What is the point? It's painfully obvious that it's only of ceremonial consequence; our connection to the old country, that is.

Why change it? Will we reap any benefits of becoming a republic?

nyden,
nothing will change, and hence - I might turn the question back the other way ....
why not?

I think you'll find it will probably be no difference or even cheaper (but that's a guess - let's say on par with current situation). Not as if the current GG and State Governor positions are free.

http://www.ozpolitics.info/guide/topics/republic/

What is a republic?
What do people mean when they talk about Australia becoming a republic? At the 1998 Constitutional Convention, the Prime Minister said, “I oppose Australia becoming a republic”. The Leader of the Opposition said, “Our nation is a republic in all but name”. And a number of other speakers said Australia is already a republic. These conflicting statements can be understood by considering the different meanings of the term “republic”. According to the Webster dictionary, there are two relevant definitions:

The first definition of a republic is, “A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them. A nation that has such a political order.”

By this measure Australia is, undeniably, already a republic. Writing in 1867, Walter Bagehot described the Westminster system of government as “disguised republicanism”. While the symbols of monarchy had been preserved, the substance of executive government had been republicanised through the practices of representative and responsible government.

More recently, the High Court of Australia has determined that, in our system of Government, ultimate sovereignty rests with the people (cf. Nationwide News Pty Ltd v Wills (1992) 177 CLR 1 at para 17 per Deane and Toohey JJ; Australian Capital Television Pty Ltd v The Commonwealth (1992) 177 CLR 106 at para 37 per Mason CJ; Theophanous v Herald & Weekly Times Ltd (1994) 182 CLR 104 at para 13 per Deane J).

However, the Webster dictionary also defines a republic as, “A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president. A nation that has such a political order.”

By this measure, Australia is not a republic. Australia, like the United Kingdom, is a constitutional monarchy with a monarch as its head of State.

PS I'm not gonna lose any sleep if we don't immediately become a republic - but rest assured that I will go to my rest assured that we will be a republic one day

. An example would be; I wouldn't marry a penniless, gambling, drug addict - too many liabilities, too few benefits.

yes but what about if she was super hot !

 

[Nyden]

yes but what about if she was super hot !

Well, that would have to be a very short-term trade then. Tight prenup as well! Long term she simply wouldn't be a good pick; something akin to a fantastic mine with only a few years left in 'er :

(Made that mistake with Zinifex! Married her when she was hot ... look at her now : Old, & ravaged by time.)

We should follow the wisdoms of the past; if it isn't broken, don't fix it!

 

[2020hindsight]

Gough Whitlam and Malcolm Fraser - Yes ad

These blokes even agreed on this one.
Gough Whitlam : "Malcolm ... it's time ! "
Malcolm Fraser : "It is!"

Well, that would have to be a very short-term trade then. Tight prenup as well! Long term she simply wouldn't be a good pick; something akin to a fantastic mine with only a few years left in 'er

I get the feelin if she accidentally pricked herself in one of those boobs it would explode

PS I found that "ad" in amongst a heap of poetry quotes and rhyming words and stuff. http://www.rhymezone.com/

 

[Whiskers]

Yes, but; this isn't like growing up, & getting married? Marriage has it's advantages, as does growing up - freedom, sex,

Undeniaby!

financial benefits ...

Speak for yourself. I drew a dud there.