Stormin_Norman
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more then 7% of australians supported the killing of 100,000s of iraqis.
The terrorists have won
- Thread starter wayneL
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numbercruncher
Beware of Dropbears
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Yes sure they did ....
Majority of those killed in Iraq have been killed by Terrorists, wouldnt of happened had the US not invaded, but the way your statement is worded is just plain false and inflammatory.
Stormin is on the money...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6040054.stm
Now that report is 18 months old, but 31% of 655,000 is 203,050. Stormin is dead right, Aussie 'supporters' (voters?) of the Iraqi disaster have as much blood on their conscience as anyone.
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.deaths/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6040054.stm
Now that report is 18 months old, but 31% of 655,000 is 203,050. Stormin is dead right, Aussie 'supporters' (voters?) of the Iraqi disaster have as much blood on their conscience as anyone.
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all iraqi death figures are highly disputed and i'd wait for the journal to see what "attributable to action by US-led coalition forces" means. until then, suggesting allied forces have killed over 200,000 civilians is a bit over the top.
anyway related to this whole terrorism thread something happened today which made me think of an overlooked issue which ties in with multiculturalism, terrorism and all that - the social compact.
way back when the social compact was simple, obey the king or lose your life. absolute power was held by the nobility and the great mass of people did what they were told under pain of death. today the social compact is more elaborate but in essence it is based on this very simple ideal - "you would do the same for me".
in mike moores "sicko" he asked an old canadian guy "why should you and i have to pay extra (taxes etc.) to provide health care, support etc. for others?" to which he replied "they would do the same for me". this was touching stuff and i earnestly believe this is the way it should be, but its changing, we can all see it (increasing stress and hostility is a dead giveaway) but no one is talking about it.
capitalist consumer culture is one factor ruining the social compact. as wealth is concentrated among fewer and fewer people there is resentment between the haves and have-nots, they all look at each other and say "well fk you then" and the social compact is fractures. this is why public health, education, welfare and other services are essential to keep society stable and provide a reasonable minimum quality of life to everyone in society. this is currently under pressure because of government policy and corporation profit mongering.
another thing ruining the social compact is multiculturalism. recent immigration practices have led to the introduction of undereducated, tribal minded and aggressive people (characterised mostly by lebanese muslims and africans) who piss on the concept of social compact because it is an alien concept to them (outside small tribal / family loyalties), and they take full advantage of the systems costing the rest of society more and breeding resentment amongst wider society (ala cronulla).
anyway i think this is related to the whole terrorism thing because terrorism seeks to fracture social compacts and drive wedges between communities, creating fertile ground for further conflict and furtherance of the cause.
we are doing the same thing to ourselves with business practices that are screwing people for profit and social policies which ignore peoples needs (labor government will get to work sorting this now).
in addition certain aspects of multiculturalism are doing the same. most cultures have arrived, taken part in the compact and we have a great society, but there are certain sections that are doing the "social work" of terrorism by setting up aggressive little enclaves and disdaining the rest of society.
so all the freedoms we enjoy, the lifestyle we lead, the peace and stability we take for granted, these are all fragile things based upon the knowledge that if you support your neighbour, he will support you. take that away (through bad policy and practice) and your freedoms, stability and peace will all fall away - starting with the freedoms. it has already begun.
anyway related to this whole terrorism thread something happened today which made me think of an overlooked issue which ties in with multiculturalism, terrorism and all that - the social compact.
way back when the social compact was simple, obey the king or lose your life. absolute power was held by the nobility and the great mass of people did what they were told under pain of death. today the social compact is more elaborate but in essence it is based on this very simple ideal - "you would do the same for me".
in mike moores "sicko" he asked an old canadian guy "why should you and i have to pay extra (taxes etc.) to provide health care, support etc. for others?" to which he replied "they would do the same for me". this was touching stuff and i earnestly believe this is the way it should be, but its changing, we can all see it (increasing stress and hostility is a dead giveaway) but no one is talking about it.
capitalist consumer culture is one factor ruining the social compact. as wealth is concentrated among fewer and fewer people there is resentment between the haves and have-nots, they all look at each other and say "well fk you then" and the social compact is fractures. this is why public health, education, welfare and other services are essential to keep society stable and provide a reasonable minimum quality of life to everyone in society. this is currently under pressure because of government policy and corporation profit mongering.
another thing ruining the social compact is multiculturalism. recent immigration practices have led to the introduction of undereducated, tribal minded and aggressive people (characterised mostly by lebanese muslims and africans) who piss on the concept of social compact because it is an alien concept to them (outside small tribal / family loyalties), and they take full advantage of the systems costing the rest of society more and breeding resentment amongst wider society (ala cronulla).
anyway i think this is related to the whole terrorism thing because terrorism seeks to fracture social compacts and drive wedges between communities, creating fertile ground for further conflict and furtherance of the cause.
we are doing the same thing to ourselves with business practices that are screwing people for profit and social policies which ignore peoples needs (labor government will get to work sorting this now).
in addition certain aspects of multiculturalism are doing the same. most cultures have arrived, taken part in the compact and we have a great society, but there are certain sections that are doing the "social work" of terrorism by setting up aggressive little enclaves and disdaining the rest of society.
so all the freedoms we enjoy, the lifestyle we lead, the peace and stability we take for granted, these are all fragile things based upon the knowledge that if you support your neighbour, he will support you. take that away (through bad policy and practice) and your freedoms, stability and peace will all fall away - starting with the freedoms. it has already begun.
wayneL
VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!
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Great post disarray. Bang on the money IMO.
How do we restore this social compact. I, for one, would like it back.
Julia
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To add to disarray's comments about multiculturalism:
I know a girl who had a baby with an African refugee. While she’s very young, she seems to be the sole provider for the child. He drives around in a late model Lancer, her car is a falling to bits Barina. He rarely works. There are suspicions of beatings, owing to facial bruising attributed to “a fall”. Apparently, beating women is part of the “culture”. We can do without this kind of “multiculturalism”. I think that migrants (this includes refugees) should not be granted citizenship for five years. If, in that time, they commit crimes of violence, they should be sent back to their homeland where they will fit in much better. It should be a condition of their residency. Question - how did the above-mentioned bludger a-hole manage to afford a late model car?
I know a girl who had a baby with an African refugee. While she’s very young, she seems to be the sole provider for the child. He drives around in a late model Lancer, her car is a falling to bits Barina. He rarely works. There are suspicions of beatings, owing to facial bruising attributed to “a fall”. Apparently, beating women is part of the “culture”. We can do without this kind of “multiculturalism”. I think that migrants (this includes refugees) should not be granted citizenship for five years. If, in that time, they commit crimes of violence, they should be sent back to their homeland where they will fit in much better. It should be a condition of their residency. Question - how did the above-mentioned bludger a-hole manage to afford a late model car?
I know a girl who had a baby with a white bogan. While she’s very young, she seems to be the sole provider for the child. He drives around in a late model Lancer, her car is a falling to bits Barina. He rarely works. There are suspicions of beatings, owing to facial bruising attributed to “a fall”. Apparently, beating women is part of the meth addicted white bogan “culture”. We can do without this kind of “anti-social trash”. Question - how did the above-mentioned bludger a-hole manage to afford a late model car?
Cuts both ways my friend. Racism and hypocrisy - I love it!
Cuts both ways my friend. Racism and hypocrisy - I love it!
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Well how to handle the terrorists is a matter requiring the wisdom of Solomon.
imo.
No need to panic.
But the threat is very very real.
And the solution to the problem is exceedingly tricky.
Just as some of the extreme anti-terror laws have been criticised by legal professors in Aus as being counterproductive.
One thing it doesn't need imo is a clown like GW Bush administering things.
Would be great to hear that the US Patriot Act received a bit of rewrite for instance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act
imo.
No need to panic.
But the threat is very very real.
And the solution to the problem is exceedingly tricky.
Just as some of the extreme anti-terror laws have been criticised by legal professors in Aus as being counterproductive.
One thing it doesn't need imo is a clown like GW Bush administering things.
Would be great to hear that the US Patriot Act received a bit of rewrite for instance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act
Some very worrying news coming out of Iraq,
Reclusive Shia cleric Moqtada Al-Sadr's Mahdi army currently under siege by Iraq security forces in Basra. In my view, this was always going to happen once the British force pulled out of Basra, leaving behind a security vacuum.
Admittedly, the Iraqi security forces have yet to be independently fully tested in battle, given that they probably feel they cannot tolerate a 10,000-15,000 string militia in their midst, this is a very serious test of their character. However, I have grave doubts in their ability to carry this task out, which essentially seems to be the subjugation and disarming of the powerful Mahdi militia.
The unrest has now spread to 4 major southern cities, including Iraq threatening, in my view, any hard-won security gains made by US and Iraqi forces. Al-Malaki has given the militia 72 hours to disarm....but if they don't, what then?... This whole scenario puts at risk the case-fire declared by Moqtada Al-Sadr last year, and may signal a tragic return to the grim days of sectarian kidnappings and murders on the streets of Iraq.
Iraq may need to learn to accomodate and accept the presence of shia militias, similar to the way Hezollah have carved out a niche for themselves in Lebanon. Dialogue and negotiation should be the order of the day, not violence.
Is there any hope here?...at all?...
jman
Reclusive Shia cleric Moqtada Al-Sadr's Mahdi army currently under siege by Iraq security forces in Basra. In my view, this was always going to happen once the British force pulled out of Basra, leaving behind a security vacuum.
Admittedly, the Iraqi security forces have yet to be independently fully tested in battle, given that they probably feel they cannot tolerate a 10,000-15,000 string militia in their midst, this is a very serious test of their character. However, I have grave doubts in their ability to carry this task out, which essentially seems to be the subjugation and disarming of the powerful Mahdi militia.
The unrest has now spread to 4 major southern cities, including Iraq threatening, in my view, any hard-won security gains made by US and Iraqi forces. Al-Malaki has given the militia 72 hours to disarm....but if they don't, what then?...
This whole scenario puts at risk the case-fire declared by Moqtada Al-Sadr last year, and may signal a tragic return to the grim days of sectarian kidnappings and murders on the streets of Iraq.Iraq may need to learn to accomodate and accept the presence of shia militias, similar to the way Hezollah have carved out a niche for themselves in Lebanon. Dialogue and negotiation should be the order of the day, not violence.
Is there any hope here?...at all?...
jman
explod
explod
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Some very worrying news coming out of Iraq,
Reclusive Shia cleric Moqtada Al-Sadr's Mahdi army currently under siege by Iraq security forces in Basra. In my view, this was always going to happen once the British force pulled out of Basra, leaving behind a security vacuum.
Admittedly, the Iraqi security forces have yet to be independently fully tested in battle, given that they probably feel they cannot tolerate a 10,000-15,000 string militia in their midst, this is a very serious test of their character. However, I have grave doubts in their ability to carry this task out, which essentially seems to be the subjugation and disarming of the powerful Mahdi militia.
The unrest has now spread to 4 major southern cities, including Iraq threatening, in my view, any hard-won security gains made by US and Iraqi forces. Al-Malaki has given the militia 72 hours to disarm....but if they don't, what then?...
Iraq may need to learn to accomodate and accept the presence of shia militias, similar to the way Hezollah have carved out a niche for themselves in Lebanon. Dialogue and negotiation should be the order of the day, not violence.
Is there any hope here?...at all?...
jman
What's changed, Saddam imposed plenty of violence, then GWB heaps more and still trying. Outside interfearance has never worked nor will it. (Same in Aphganistan, USSR got beat and so will the West. That terrorists have infiltrated is propaganda, it is just the locals who hate the occupiers because they have lost family members, culture and the means to provide for themselves. Soverign states must be left to work out their own destiny; Unless they are siting on a heaps of oil, then it seems to be different.
What a distastful thread this is. Ahhggg
Shame the starving millions across drought stricken Africa didn't have a bit of oil.
Well I tend to think this is more of internal issue for the Iraqis to solve, so yes, soveriegn states should be be left to sort out their own disturbances. In many ways, GWB has done Iran a huge favour in Iraq. For years, the majority Shia were simmering away under the brutal Ba'ath Party regime, who managed to keep a lid on any internal dissent mostly through violence and intimidation.
But with the withdrawal of the British from Basra, this has enabled Iran to extend its long arm back into southern Iran and yield more influence through Moqtada Al-Sadr. I have to admit, without Al-Sadr yielding his considerable influence and calling a cease-fire last year, the situation on the ground could be much, much worse....not that the current situation could be called acceptable by any means. So I still feel Al-Sadr has an important role to play in Iraq, and by that I mean for the better, the time has long passed for the opportunity for his influence to be nullified, as much as it would pain many people to admit.
jman
Where is Iraq oil going? No one seem to care. I, for one, will like some good journalist to find out the truth?
Iraq seems a lost cause to me, soon the shia and sunni American trained armies will fight each other, while the world will see in wonder what is happening there.
In all sincerity , a good solution will be to impose military rule ( and for God sake, get rid of this petty show of democracy), by Iraq Army. Increase the army recruitments and impose strict laws, till peace and order is restored.
USA never had an imperalistic experience and thus always suffer after wining the initial war ( on the back of brute force). When you win a war, the important lesson is to implement military rule for a while, make people understand that the law is supreme, and then after a while give some authority to the people. Which is what UK ( after some bitter experience) learned from its empire.
This youngesters( USA ) of today will never understand the wisdom of old fellas( UK. France etc).
America is trying to establish Democracy in Iraq, in a region where no one cares about it. It is a sham democracy, which is imposed on people and bear little fruit.
Iraq seems a lost cause to me, soon the shia and sunni American trained armies will fight each other, while the world will see in wonder what is happening there.
In all sincerity , a good solution will be to impose military rule ( and for God sake, get rid of this petty show of democracy), by Iraq Army. Increase the army recruitments and impose strict laws, till peace and order is restored.
USA never had an imperalistic experience and thus always suffer after wining the initial war ( on the back of brute force). When you win a war, the important lesson is to implement military rule for a while, make people understand that the law is supreme, and then after a while give some authority to the people. Which is what UK ( after some bitter experience) learned from its empire.
This youngesters( USA ) of today will never understand the wisdom of old fellas( UK. France etc).
America is trying to establish Democracy in Iraq, in a region where no one cares about it. It is a sham democracy, which is imposed on people and bear little fruit.
