Why are we saying 'sorry' to the aboriginals?!

[Scuba]

There may be some who have done nothing wrong and therefore consider an apology inappropriate.

I for one, hope our government has the strength and fortitude to make an apology to the indigenous peoples of this land for the shameful treatment they recieved at the hands of 'so called' "modern" settlers and their descendants.

This is about bringing us together, let the objectionists stand aside so the olive branch can be given...

 

[Stan 101]

Porkpie, the Australian government is throwing money at the aboriginal communities in obscene amounts already. That money is not being utilized effectively. The Australian government has failed the aboriginal people. Those governments were elected by us, the people.
This human rights issue will not go away anytime soon. There needs to be some fresh consultation on important issues like health, education and employment. Aboriginal communities need to regain a collective self respect.
Noel Pearson's view on building a macro community culture is certainly a step in the right direction. Individuals take ownership of their actions in the community and work toward it prospering.
Instilling a whole industry to the aboriginal people may be one way of promoting an introduction to capitalism. This concept seems to have been well received with eco tourism.
There needs to be a summit meeting with free thinking people from both white and black Australia to set the foundation blocks for the long road forward. There is no quick fix to this situation. To think there is a quick fix or believe this is just a burden on white Australia is only several degrees from the apartheid movement in South Africa.
Australia can continue to waste good money on hand outs as stated in parts of the that "redneck" chain email or we can use that money to unify, encourage and truly help all of Australia to be a truly great nation and not one built on bigotry, resentment and hatred..


cheers,

 

[Scuba]

Great post Stan 101, it's time to move on.
For those not interested, step aside or go stand in the square on a soap box telling the world you're not sorry. Better still, don't whinge and complain about reconciliation, just let it happen...

 

[porkpie324]

Yeh, bla bla, heard it all before, your just 15 to 20 years behind us thats all, you wait in ten years time you and billions later things with them "Aboes" will still be the same. The thing is Mr&Mrs Aboe won't see any of the benifits the top ones will get it all, thats what happened with the Maori here. Don't fool yourself on this issue.porkpie

 

[disarray]

that was a good post skint.

1. ""Aborigines were still living in the Stone Age when Europeans arrived. They hadn't even invented the wheel."

i've read guns, germs and steel as well and i know its terrible to say and will get the lefties all up in arms but yes, aboriginal society WAS INFERIOR to western society. if the situation was reversed and white people were hunting / gathering in australia and black people were surviving extremely harsh conditions in europe then it would probably be whites demanding the apology, but its not, it happened this way and the fact remains western civilisation was technologically, culturally, socially (although this could be argued) and economically superior to aboriginal society. not because they are black, not because they are aborigines, but because they were stone age and we were becoming industrial. the mass settlement of europeans to the new world was part of evolution, the same as globalisation is today.


2) "Aborigines should just snap out of their problems, get a job and be like the rest of us."

you raised some good points and i agree with you, it's not just a case of yelling at them to change because they got screwed over. however it is vital that the aborigines take a good long look at themselves, have some internal debate among their people and set themselves a framework for progress. substance abuse, crime, sexual abuse and welfare dependence don't really seem to be doing it for them but CHANGE MUST COME FROM WITHIN, and it seems it takes a maverick to tackle the issue head on (noel pearson for one). wider society is carrying the aboriginals and it's not fair to society any more than it is fair to the aborigines. so while i agree it's not just a simple case of "snap out of it", the aboriginal community needs a fierce internal debate about their direction and now is a good time to be having that.

as to your last point we'll probably differ here. australia was built on misery, pain, and hard work (the convicts as well as the aborigines) and it was defended with blood (white australians mostly) but NOW we have a stable, prosperous, first world, multicultural society. from this point every culture in australia could make a claim against another culture for historic wrongs, and as long as people go on about it then it will never get resolved.

race relations need open debate, people need to vent, vitriol needs to flow like pus from a wound and THEN we can all sit down and negotiate a settlement which lets us all move on. so this can also relate to mofras quotefest.

aboriginal leaders have been clamouring for an apology for ages apparently, thats great, so just to clarify, do these aboriginal leaders speak for all the aboriginal people? and the part-aboriginals? will they accept the apology? but more importantly, will the aboriginal people now begin to take control of their own destiny and build their society back up? if not, then the whole thing is a waste of time and we'll keep carrying a dysfunctional society forever.

if australia as a nation acknowleges the past against aborigines, and offers compensation and a proper apology, then that has to be the end of it. the aboriginal people have to accept the apology and from then on take responsibilty for themselves, the same as the rest of us do. anything less is just a half-assed political stunt that will achieve nothing and lay the seeds for future resentment to and from the aborigines.

this debate is all black and white though (mostly white), i'd also like to know what asian australians think because they certainly don't have any reason to apologise but they continue to pay for it.

 

[vida]

Well disarray I am certain they will never shut the fk up and why should they! That is what chauvinists always think towards the underclasses: they should keep quiet, as women were told to do in the most archaic patriarchal times. Did women stay silent? not for long and we won't keep quiet ever ever ever.

And there are many apologies that should be made around the world and perhaps this will be the beginning of a global reconciliation. The USA has many 'sorries' owing and Obama if he does get elected may be the man for it.

It takes a big man to admit to mistakes, a coward denies them.

I am not of English/Irish descent, but from Lithuanian descent and none of my ancestors had anything to do with early settlement in Australia when the igenocide was suffered by indigenous people and their culture. Nevertheless I feel deep sorrow for what happened and I want my government to apologise on behalf of everyone, compensate them and provide more health and education services so they can live decently and harmoniously.

Its not an easy reconstruction but it can be achieved and must be done. There is a reconstruction debt owed to any country by its victor after a war - and this is no different. There must be a lot more viable assistance to indigenous communities.

I saw an aboriginal family on Elizabeth Street in Melbourne a few days ago, and they were a very rare sight indeed. They do not form part of our mainstream communities and culture and why is this so? Why are they so isolated?

I attended an indigenous art opening in Fitzroy yesterday and their art is on the walls for thousands of dollars but the artists attend in salvation army clothes and all the money they make from art is shares with their community. They are a very socially minded community involved people unlike capitalist individuals and we could learn a lot from that.

i don't have anything to be sorry for, but if we are going to say sorry to the aborigines then they should accept so we can all move on. and give the whole "deep hurt" bleeding heart a rest, every culture has suffered deep hurt, its not like this stone age tribal society is unique. maybe we should go around the world and apologise to everyone!

the aborigines would do well to accept an apology and work towards a settlement because if we are still here going through this crap in 10 - 15 years there will be zero sympathy left for them and the only advice the rest of society will have for them is to shut the fk up.

 

[disarray]

as you say vida, the aborigines will never shut up, and why should they? so even after apologies, compensation, reams of white guilt, the aborigines will still be bringing up grievances against the country? not acceptable.

proper apology now, put the issue to bed, all move on. half-assed efforts will breed resentment and keep the issue going. now is a good opportunity, we should all (aborigines included) take advantage of it.

 

[Scuba]

Yeh, bla bla, heard it all before, your just 15 to 20 years behind us thats all,

It's all about you isn't it, out front, on the cutting edge, setting the trend?

you wait in ten years time you and billions later things with them "Aboes" will still be the same.

Is the correct spelling Pakehoah? Verstehen? Capisce? Comprende? Understand? Colour of skin/ choice of religion/ political belief, there's always something to make someone different...

The thing is Mr&Mrs Aboe won't see any of the benifits the top ones will get it all, thats what happened with the Maori here.

How does one divide and apportion an apology? When Cook landed or shortly thereafter he signed a treaty didn't he?

Don't fool yourself on this issue.porkpie.

Well, after reading your divisive rant, you haven't won me over.

 

[Scuba]

***edited***
proper apology now, put the issue to bed, all move on. half-assed efforts will breed resentment and keep the issue going. now is a good opportunity, we should all (aborigines included) take advantage of it.

I can't agree with all of what you say on this disarray, but I do agree with this last paragraph wholeheartedly...

 

[porkpie324]

Dear Scuba, coming from a nation that bowl's underarm I find your comments a bit rich, all I'm trying to do is draw your attention to an issue which once started is never to go away and will be extremely expensive. Believe me we've been there, porkpie

 

[2020hindsight]

Dear Scuba, coming from a nation that bowl's underarm I find your comments a bit rich, all I'm trying to do is draw your attention to an issue which once started is never to go away and will be extremely expensive. Believe me we've been there, porkpie

question porkpie...
were 50% of the "deaths in custody in NZ" - I assume you have a few, although I imagine a fraction of what we have - were 50% of them taken from their parents early in life?

PS I think you'll find that the world has a lot of respect for Kiwis - not least because of your relative racial harmony.

lol - bowling underarm - by a man who did so reluctantly - under instruction. We apologise. lol.

PS I recall a taxidriver in CHCH telling me.. "we'll give em back the same land they gave us .... as long as they give us back the same beads and blankets we gave them" - good way to move forward (not)

 

[Stan 101]

Porkpie, has there been any corporate reflection on why NZ is still in this situation you speak of after all these years?
Clearly there has not been correct implementation or the concept was flawed. To continue with a plan after it has been made abundantly clear it is fruitless is sheer lunacy. Says a bit about your government more than the Maori people to me.

As for two brothers not playing in good spirit during a sporting event, please don't be so naive as to think it was a national conspiracy.


cheers,

 

[2020hindsight]

... this apology next Wednesday is being billed as Bigger than Ben Hur.
.....
2:00pm Opening of Parliament / Question Time. (think I'm right).
....
PS that program could well change btw.

sounds like that program is wrong
I think I just heard that ABC TV program will start at 9:00am (I think). - If not TV that radio ?

 

[porkpie324]

question porkpie...
were 50% of the "deaths in custody in NZ" - I assume you have a few, although I imagine a fraction of what we have - were 50% of them taken from their parents early in life?
I don't understand your question, 50% of who?

As for our government in question on the management of a situation. This turned into such a big thing once started that a succesion of governments can not solve it.

As for the "underarm" incident most Kiwi's have let it rest, which will not happen once this issue starts

 

[2020hindsight]

I don't understand your question, 50% of who?

porkpie, I posted this back there, post #235 ...

Herewith a couple more quotes on the subject, which make you realise how traumatic it was ... - who knows one of those mentioned in the first comment might have been prospector's schoolfriend
http://apology.west.net.au/

"Almost half of the Aboriginal people who died in custody and were investigated by the Black Deaths Royal Commission, had been removed from their families as children..." - Kirsten Garrett, Background Briefing, Sunday, 11 February 1996

"They would not let us kiss our father goodbye, I will never forget the sad look on his face. He was unwell and he worked very hard all his life as a timber-cutter. That was the last time I saw my father, he died within two years after." - Jennifer , Bringing them Home Report

 

[vida]

Disarray

I think you should spend a minute and put yourself in their shoes. Obviously you don't know what it is like to suffer deep injustice and loss. The path to moving on begins by apologies and compensation but there is no totally getting over it. You underestimate the indigenous intelligence by saying they will forever be bringing up grievances against the country. Their grievances are not against 'the' country at all, you should be more careful how you choose your words. This is their country and was before we ever arrived and just because it has happened in other civilisations that is no reason to ignore it. It should be fully confronted and everything possible done to repair the continuing damage and for generations in the future it will be history hopefully never to be repeated again. It will be never forgotten & should not.

as you say vida, the aborigines will never shut up, and why should they? so even after apologies, compensation, reams of white guilt, the aborigines will still be bringing up grievances against the country? not acceptable.

proper apology now, put the issue to bed, all move on. half-assed efforts will breed resentment and keep the issue going. now is a good opportunity, we should all (aborigines included) take advantage of it.

 

[vida]

Further, its not about guilt its about taking responsibility. I don't feel any guilt but I feel the government's responsibility and my responsibility to ensure the government does what is right. In that regard I voted for someone who I thought would do the right thing on many issues including this one. The jewish issue has never been forgotten, keeps coming up and understandably. Where are your views coming from? I can't understand your intolerance.

as you say vida, the aborigines will never shut up, and why should they? so even after apologies, compensation, reams of white guilt, the aborigines will still be bringing up grievances against the country? not acceptable.

proper apology now, put the issue to bed, all move on. half-assed efforts will breed resentment and keep the issue going. now is a good opportunity, we should all (aborigines included) take advantage of it.

 

[Scuba]

Dear Scuba, coming from a nation that bowl's underarm I find your comments a bit rich, all I'm trying to do is draw your attention to an issue which once started is never to go away and will be extremely expensive. Believe me we've been there, porkpie

ROFL @ "Bowling"....
One man does not a nation make, and can I apologise for his behaviour on behalf of this nation?
Regards,
Scuba

 

[Mofra]

lol - bowling underarm - by a man who did so reluctantly - under instruction. We apologise. lol.

Arrghhh an apology!
The neo-cons are going to start another 20 threads about this apology because "they didn't bowl the ball!"

 

[porkpie324]

My mate Rangi has just turned up we're going fishing, say's he's going over to Aus there's easy money to make out of gullible Aussies. Reading some of these posts he's right. porkpie