Fluoride

[Julia]

Can anyone point me to any scientific studies or any other basis beside assertion? At present there only seems to be crackpot argument.

Knobby, this doesn't constitute a scientific study. I spent one month in an area where there is fluoride in the water. My teeth at the end of that time were so brown with fluorosis that they looked rotten. Not just a "faint, almost indiscernible mottling" as the pro fluoride lobby suggests, but dark, solid brown. Had to get them all veneered.

I had no idea what had happened until I went to the dentist on arriving home and he immediately deduced that I had been drinking fluoridated water.

This only affects a small proportion of the population, but it is a very real concern to those who are affected.

I am utterly delighted for everyone who wants to consume fluoride to do so.
It is easy to add it via fluoride tablets. It should not be forced on the rest of us.

I'm with Happy's comment that too many children are for ever sucking on sweet drinks/corrosive fruit juice and other varieties of poor nutrition.

I don't see that the principle is too different from saying that because such a high proportion of the population appears to be depressed these days, then we should all consume anti depressants in our water supply.

Or cholesterol-lowering agents because so many people refuse to modify their diet and exercise to bring their risk of heart disease down.

Or any other number of similar examples.

 

[Yeti]

At present there only seems to be crackpot argument.

Thank you for that contribution Knobby. I am just wondering who exactly you are calling a crackpot here?

 

[Smurf1976]

Best thing I ever did for my teeth was get a battery powered (rechargeable) toothbrush.

Seriously, I thought the idea was a bit of a gimmick, but there's no way in practice that a manual brush does anywhere near as well. In theory maybe, but not in practice.

Cost about $40. They only seem to last about 2 years but that's real cheap dental care IMO.

 

[KIWIKARLOS]

this stuff about poison is rediculous many substances we put into our bodies are poisonous in big enough quantities including good old salt! the benefits of the micro levels we get in water compared to the minor side effects are well worth it. Its about quality of life i would prefer to have good teeth for 50-70 years and then have a slight increase in risk of adverse health effects than have all my teeth pulled by the age of 30!

I would be more worried about the highly toxic cancer causing fumes from plastics in new cars or the fact that since humans started making dioxins the world average levels have increased rapidly. This analogy of nazis using fluride come on they also used chlorine how many people have swum in pools not to mention the fact that chlorine is used to steralise water aswell

 

[Wysiwyg]

Reiterating on what was said earlier, adding fluoride to water is not the way to curb tooth decay. Teeth remain healthy with regular flossing, brushing and low sugar diet.

Its about quality of life i would prefer to have good teeth for 50-70 years and then have a slight increase in risk of adverse health effects than have all my teeth pulled by the age of 30!

Rubbish.

 

[2020hindsight]

--any person who drinks artificially fluorinated water for a period of one year or more will never again be the same person mentally or physically." - CHARLES E. PERKINS, Chemist, 2 October 1954.

m8, I guess us baby boomers can all sit back and wonder what we've been like if we hadn't drunk the stuff for 40 years or whatever -

but I guess that goes for a few other liquids we've drunk over the years as well lol.

Most Gen X have surely had it since their teens (v approx)?

Most Gen Y kids have drunk it all their lives - yes?

PS What are they gonna call the generation after Z?
or don't we anticipate a generation after Z..

PS More Gen X than Boomers ? - no wonder there was a recent change of govt lol.

http://www.learningtolearn.sa.edu.au/Colleagues/files/links/UnderstandingGenY.pdf

 

[ajoz]

Have a look at the following link about Tooth Decay Trends in Fluoridated vs. Unfluoridated Countries

http://fluoridealert.org/health/teeth/caries/who-dmft.html

Furthermore:

"As of April 7th, 1997, the United States FDA (Food & Drug Administration) has required that all fluoride toothpastes sold in the U.S. carry a poison warning on the label. The warning cautions toothpaste users to: "WARNING: Keep out of reach of children under 6 years of age. If you accidentally swallow more than used for brushing, seek professional help or contact a poison control center immediately."

"Interestingly, "despite" the fact that the vast majority of western Europe does not fluoridate its water despite the fact that children's toothpaste with lower fluoride levels are more common, Europe's tooth decay rates are as low - if not lower - than the tooth decay rates in the heavily fluoridated United States."

http://www.totalwellnessnetwork.com/dont-swallow-your-toothpaste.html

The problem I see with adding fluoride to water is that you can't control individual doses. We are admonished to drink more water. So the more you drink the more you ingest. What about your food that is prepared with that water or other beverages you drink that are made from this water all adding to the total amount consumed. If you enjoy a hot shower than the gases are also inhaled.

The graph above shows that there seems to be no real difference in dental problems in those countries that don't add fluoride and that the real difference seems to me to be better dental hygiene.

 

[Julia]

Can anyone point me to any scientific studies or any other basis beside assertion? At present there only seems to be crackpot argument.

Could you please explain just what you have decided is "crackpot argument".

Also, how exactly have you deduced that those against fluoridated water are the same people who are against vaccinations such as Whooping Cough and Measles?

I, for one, am not opposed but am in favour of vaccinations for the above two diseases. But I fail to see your point. Vaccinations are individually given and are therefore a choice. Putting fluoride in the water supply is rendering a basic human right in a first world country (drinking water supply) inaccessible to those of us who are adversely affected by fluoride.

Do you think that's fair?

 

[wayneL]

Have a look at the following link about Tooth Decay Trends in Fluoridated vs. Unfluoridated Countries

http://fluoridealert.org/health/teeth/caries/who-dmft.html

Furthermore:

"As of April 7th, 1997, the United States FDA (Food & Drug Administration) has required that all fluoride toothpastes sold in the U.S. carry a poison warning on the label. The warning cautions toothpaste users to: "WARNING: Keep out of reach of children under 6 years of age. If you accidentally swallow more than used for brushing, seek professional help or contact a poison control center immediately."

"Interestingly, "despite" the fact that the vast majority of western Europe does not fluoridate its water despite the fact that children's toothpaste with lower fluoride levels are more common, Europe's tooth decay rates are as low - if not lower - than the tooth decay rates in the heavily fluoridated United States."

http://www.totalwellnessnetwork.com/dont-swallow-your-toothpaste.html

The problem I see with adding fluoride to water is that you can't control individual doses. We are admonished to drink more water. So the more you drink the more you ingest. What about your food that is prepared with that water or other beverages you drink that are made from this water all adding to the total amount consumed. If you enjoy a hot shower than the gases are also inhaled.

The graph above shows that there seems to be no real difference in dental problems in those countries that don't add fluoride and that the real difference seems to me to be better dental hygiene.

Good find ajoz,

Shows that fluoridation is bollox.

 

[Whiskers]

Good find ajoz,

Shows that fluoridation is bollox.

I was quite unconcerned about this flouridation debate. But having read some of these posts and particularly looking at ajoz's graph and noticing how much of the world does not use it... the best thing I can say for the moment is, I'm pleased I am in a rural area and have rain water.

Was planning for a retirement place on the coast somewhere, but it looks like I might have to make that with rain water tanks also.

 

[disarray]

having grown up with it i never thought about it. when it rains the water soaks the earth then the excess runs down the catchment areas into the dams. along the way the water picks up agricultural runoff, rubbish, animal waste, rubber and oil from roads and all the other crap a city of over 4 million people generates, and it dumps this into our water supply.

all of this means sydneys drinking water is often hit by algae blooms and cryptosporidium and giardia so it isn't very clean to begin with. then the government run it through the treatment process and generally deliver clean water. having experienced domestic water in a lot of places, sydney does rank highly for having a good, clean and reliable domestic water supply.

fluoride has been added here since the 60's and there haven't been any adverse effects that anyone has spoken of, unless there is a conspiracy or something nutty like that. given the amount of pollutants we take in every day its probably nothing in the great scheme of things anyway, but why mess with something if it doesn't need it?

 

[Kimosabi]

Flouride is chemical waste that was also used by the nazi's to pacify the prisoners in their concentration camps.

Bad teeth are primarily caused by poor nutrition...

If you have to buy food at the supermarket, buy food from the outside of the supermarket, avoid the processed crap in the middle of the supermarket, but ideally, consume raw, locally grown, organic food.

People who do this have missing teeth regrow, enamel get thicker, fillings fall out and the tooth regrows, etc, etc.

 

[sam76]

what doesn't kill you can only make you stronger.

 

[Whiskers]

The thing that has now got me a bit worried is that fluoride is one of those elements that accumulate in the body. That alone is enough to set off alarm bells for me and err on the side of caution by not consuming the stuff for the time being.


Geeez, I'm even starting to have second thoughts about using toothpaste now.

 

[Julia]

The thing that has now got me a bit worried is that fluoride is one of those elements that accumulate in the body. That alone is enough to set off alarm bells for me and err on the side of caution by not consuming the stuff for the time being.


Geeez, I'm even starting to have second thoughts about using toothpaste now.

Whiskers, plenty of toothpaste without fluoride, thank heavens.

 

[Whiskers]

Whiskers, plenty of toothpaste without fluoride, thank heavens.

Hope so Julia. Just noticed, I use Colgate and it's .22% fluoride.

I have held an Agricultural Chemicals Accredited Users Certificate and what I find strange in light of a brief perusal of some research is that there is a note on the tube that says "NO COLGATE TOOTHPASTE CONTAINS SUGAR", BUT there is not a warning to avoid swallowing the stuff.

Since children are are most suseptable to fluoride poisining, I would have thought that would be a heck of a lot more important than 'no colgate toothpaste contains sugar'. One would have thought that was a no brainer.

 

[ajoz]

Here is a link to a web site by Dr. Mercola about the dangers of fluoride.
http://search.mercola.com/Results.aspx?q=fluoride

The frightening part about this whole thing is that a great deal of trust is placed by most people in scientists, doctors and officials, yet there are numerous times when drugs that were approved had to be recalled such as vioxx, thalidomide and recently Children's Cough Medicine.

The Fluoride Controversy
By Dr. Ted Spence

Fluoride is a very controversial topic, but how controversial I did not realize. The data reveals that fluoride is a chemical toxin. As you can see by my studies and degrees, I place a large amount of confidence in nutritional methods for over coming disease and place little in toxic drugs, synthetic chemicals and especially toxins, like fluoride.

A few years ago, I was asked by the head of our local health department to conduct a review of existing journal research on the toxicity of fluoride with emphasis on its cancer causing potential. I went to the National Medical Library and produced for him some 40 articles on the toxicity of fluoride. When we reviewed them, there was some discrepancy in whether or not fluoride was mutagenic.

Well, half of the articles said that it was and half said that it was not. But it can not be both ways ... We wondered what was wrong. Then the element of bias entered the picture, since Proctor and Gamble has paid for some of the "negative-concluding" research. We were still puzzled.

My only goal is to tell this information to the patients and let them decide. Isn’t that fair ... after all it is their decision? It is the patient’s choice ... isn’t it? The toxicity of fluoride has caused many countries to rethink the fluoride issue and many have rescinded fluoride in favor of the health of their people.

Those banning fluoride are Sweden, Norway, Denmark, West Germany (now unified), Italy, Belgium, Austria, France, and The Netherlands. Despite these retractions of fluoride, the US still presses on with the goal to fluoridate (poison) every community water supply in the United States.

All allopathically-trained dentists are very familiar with the ADA and other "authoritative" positions on fluoride. They rarely mention its toxic potential or the few studies revealing increased tooth decay after fluoride use. The research of Burk and Yiamouyiannis revealed that every major city with fluoride had increased rates of cancer. Not a fair trade for "good looking teeth".

If you don’t want to look at this data, that is your decision. As health professionals, we don’t want to harm patients in any way and fluoride produces great harm. I am referring to taking fluoride internally, where it has been found to cause unscheduled DNA synthesis, sister chromatid exchanges and yes, mutagenic effects on the cells.

These terms may not bother some people at all, but they mean that there will be an increase in cancer after the ingestion of fluoride. Tsutsui, et al found that the addition of fluoride to healthy liver cell, in vitro, could establish changes that can only be described as cancerous.

The ADA’s official position is that this stuff is safe, yet there have been deaths of children in the dentists office due to fluoride, albeit very few. The point I am trying to make is that this is not to be taken lightly. In a letter [to me] from the ADA apologizing for fluoride, that stated, "There are three basic compounds commonly used for fluoridating drinking water supplies in the United States: sodium fluoride, sodium silicofluoride, and hydrofluorosilicic acid."

Now any chemist can tell you that these are not the sodium fluoride we are all told about. Sodium hydrofluorosilicic acid is one of the most reactive chemical species know to man. Its toxicity is known in many chemical circles. It will eat through metal/ plastic pipes and corrode many materials including stainless steel and other metals. It will dissolve rubber tires and melt concrete. This is added to our water to produce "healthy teeth".

Fluoride Does the Following:

inactivates 62 enzymes (Judd)
increases the aging process (Yiamouyiannis)
increases the incidence of cancer and tumor growth (Waldbott/Yiamouyiannis)
disrupts the immune system (Waldbott)
causes genetic damage (Tsutsui, et al)
interrupts DNA repair-enzyme activity (Waldbott)
increased arthritis and
is a systemic poison.

"Fluoride is a highly toxic substance.... "

L P Anthony, DDS editor of the Journal of the American Dental Association - 1944

Funny how times change, but truth does not change.

"....we have very strong circumstantial evidence of systemic toxicity of the so-called absolutely safe concentrate of fluoridated water"

Roy E Hanford, MD, "Where is Science Taking US? reprint from Saturday Review

"Don't drink fluoridated water .... Fluoride is a corrosive poison which will produce harm on a long term basis." Dr Charles Heyd, Past AMA president

Some 61,000 cancer deaths in the US result from fluoridation each year. I repeat 61,000. (Burk and Yiamouyiannis) One study found that fluoride elevates cancer mortality 17% in 16 years in large cities. (from Gerald Judd, PhD) "You have been led to believe the fluorine makes teeth harder. The fact is, it actually makes teeth softer." (George Meinig, a founder of the American Academy of Endodontics)

The US sees a 22% increase in decay every 16 years from fluoride use and a 50% decline in decay every 20 years compared with Finland's 98%, Sweden's 80% and Holland's 72%. And they are non-fluoridated. (Gerald Judd)

My only goal is to tell the truth about the ill-effects of a known toxin. I mentioned the paper being published by the Health Freedom News on the neurotoxicity of fluoride. Fluoride is a potent neurotoxin and this has been known for some time; at least since the early 1940s, well before the fluoridation experiment with Grand Rapids.

Dr Gerard Judd, PhD (chemistry), [ emeritus Manhatten project] found that fluoride can inactivate 62 enzyme systems. As a naturopath, nutritionist and master herbalist, I cannot endorse a substance that has known detrimental effects.

Geoffrey Smith stated, "Recent studies suggest that fluoride may be genotoxic." (p 79, Smith) And added, "There is now a substantial body of evidence suggesting that fluoride is mutagenic." (p 93, Smith) Gibson also noted, "Fluoride is one of the most toxic inorganic chemicals in the Earth's crust, ... However, with increasing experience, doubts about both safety and efficacy have arisen." (p 111, Gibson)

And he added, "A possible link between fluoridation of public water supplies and an increase in the cancer death rate has been debated for over 20 years and there is now no doubt that fluoride can cause genetic damage." (p 111, Gibson)

Gibson noted, "Inhibitory effects of fluoride on different enzyme systems have been demonstrated." (p 111, Gibson) And, "A section of the population may therefore be at risk of compromised immune system function from water fluoridation schemes." (p 112, Gibson)

Get the drift; fluoride is not everything it is cracked up to be. Mutagenic, enzyme inhibition, genetic damage, increased cancer rates, genotoxic and controversial, all describe fluoride.

Tsutsui et al noted, a significant increase in chromosome aberrations at the chromatid level, sister chromatid exchanges, and unscheduled DNA synthesis was induced by NaF in a dose- and timedependent manner.

These results indicate that NaF is genotoxic and capable of inducing neoplastic transformation of Syrian hamster embryo cells in culture." (p 938, Tsutsui et al) There, you can see the controversy for yourself. Fluoride is toxic, fluoride is non-toxic; fluoride causes cancer, fluoride doesn't cause cancer. Who do we believe?

The fluoride controversy comes down to

... Who Do We Really Believe?

Here's two articles on mutations caused by fluoride:

Sodium Fluoride-induced Morphological and Neoplastic Transformation Chromosome Aberrations, Sister Chromatid Exchanges, and Unscheduled DNA Synthesis in Cultured Syrian Hamster Embryo Cells, Takeki Tsutsui, Nobuko Suzuki and Manabu Ohmori, Can Res, 44:938-941, 1984 (March)

Sodium Fluoride-induced Chromosome Aberrations in Different Stages of the Cell Cycle: A Proposed Mechanism, Marilyn J Aardema, et al, Mutation Research, 223:191-203, 1989

The titles say it all.

Therefore, because of this controversy my feelings on this matter is that is should be up to the patient. They need both sides of the story to make an "intelligent" decision. I only mean to give them the other side. References are cited for your use and reading enjoyment.

The EPA found that at 2 ppm salmon were sterile, yet at 1 ppm it is placed in our water supply. [Dr Richard Foulkes] Fluoride only helps [if it helps] children up to age 12. Yet, everybody is "forced" to drink it. Oscar Ewing, who pushed fluoride in the legislature, told the senators not to drink it.

The last thing I would say it that by endorsing fluoride you totally eliminate the real prevention of tooth decay ... good sound nutrition. Tooth-brushing [important as it is] does not stop tooth decay.

Fluoride [a toxic] does not stop rampant tooth decay. [Fluoride only hardens to outer surface of the enamel and may prevent calcium from being deposited when a tooth is re-mineralized.] Nutrition stops tooth decay. I have developed a nutritional supportive program which will totally stop tooth decay in less than two weeks.

I have watched many children go from all 20 carious deciduous teeth, to 20 ebernated [hardened] teeth, which are non-painful and hard as rock. I have never seen fluoride do this [after 21 years of dentistry] and fluoride is not even a part of my caries prevention program.

Ted H Spence, DDS, ND, PhD/DSc,MH"

 

[chops_a_must]

I'm still not convinced either way.

But in my case, as a notorious teeth grinder who has cracked 2 teeth in my sleep, I'm obviously glad to have fluorided water.

 

[karmatik]

The thing that has now got me a bit worried is that fluoride is one of those elements that accumulate in the body. That alone is enough to set off alarm bells for me and err on the side of caution by not consuming the stuff for the time being.


Geeez, I'm even starting to have second thoughts about using toothpaste now.

well said Whiskers. flouride accumulates in the body i.e. the residual remains and builds over time. this is scientific fact.

I dont know what is wrong with you people that think flouride addition to water is a good thing. bad teeth is a result of bad dental hygeine and acidic foods.

where's the mystery in this??

 

[Yeti]

I'm still not convinced either way.

But in my case, as a notorious teeth grinder who has cracked 2 teeth in my sleep, I'm obviously glad to have fluorided water.

Chops, you say you're not convinced either way, but... you are "obviously glad to have fluoridated water" because you have two cracked teeth. Unless I am missing something that does not compute.