Humans are animals

[Sean K]

I have previously been a very 'spiritual' person, and even called myself a Buddhist at one point, but a few years ago I had an epiphany, and I converted to become a Humanist.

I have come to firmly believe that humans are just another animal trying to survive on this rock. There is nothing spiritual, or mystical, about our existance, we are just another product of evolution and natural selection.

Humans are an animal species.

Our unique capabilites include:

Empathy.
Abstract reasoning.
Sophisticated communication.
Introspection.
The ability to plan for the future.
Our ability to control our environment, due mainly to our dexterity (the thumb is a great bit of kit!)

Just an animal with some special talents....

Being an 'animal' I have considered all our actions to be in aid of one basic goal; to survive - the meaning of life.

All our actions are only in aid of our own personal benefit to achieve this aim. There is no true thing such as altruism, or self sacrifice. The ultimate aim of all our actions is to seek benefit for ourselves, and to survive.

To survive, we need the usual things:

Water, food, shelter, security, self esteem, a plasma, and seek the ultimate goal - self actualisation (to put a Maslow slant on it)

The reason I raise this is that I just thought, perhaps I'm wrong.


Are we any more special than just being an 'animal'?

 

[wayneL]

:run::hide:

 

[Sean K]

:run::hide:

You're thinking just animals?

 

[wayneL]

The reason I raise this, is that I just thought that perhaps I'm wrong.


Are we any more special than just being an 'animal'?

Ah WTF! I'll jump in anyway. LOL

Just guessing because nobody truly knows, but I think you're partly right and partly wrong.

If we truly have a spiritual side, an infinite soul so to speak, why earthly life?

To learn something?

To experience something opposite to the spirit? (developing a thought from a Taoist perspective)

To be tested?

I don't know. But if so, then our experience here is to just be as you say, to be just another animal, otherwise our purpos would be made much clearer.

But their remains the potential for a spiritual perspective within the animal experience. To me this this makes life potentially beautiful (and fulfilled as such at times) rather than just an ultimately futile struggle for survival.

Somehow to me, humanism still contains a kernel of spirituality (by my admittedly abstract concept of it) whether or not that is recognized or admitted to. The richest experiences of our lives have nothing to do with the purely animal impulses (mind you sex isn't bad ) but rooted in something else beyond those things you mention.

Just musing.

 

[Sean K]

Somehow to me, humanism still contains a kernel of spirituality...

Just musing.

Yes, and it would be more amusing if Bullmarket was here to provide the answers. LOL

When I explain my 'epiphany' about discoverying Humanism, and being so sure of it, I speak like an Evangelical Minister. 'THIS IS THE WAY! IT'S THE TRUTH!!!' It's quite embarrassing actually, especially after a few vinos....

I always wake up the next day having lost another friend. LOL.

One of the things that has led me to start thinking that we may be 'different', is that we may have the capacity to actually do things for predominantely someone else's benefit.

But I'm not sure. Altruism is a myth designed by people to make themselves feel good. LOL.


PS, in regard to humanism being spiritual, that is what I was inferring to with my epiphany. It was like lightening striking, and it's become like a dogma...eeek.

 

[explod]

Yes, and it would be more amusing if Bullmarket was here to provide the answers. LOL

When I explain my 'epiphany' about discoverying Humanism, and being so sure of it, I speak like an Evangelical Minister. 'THIS IS THE WAY! IT'S THE TRUTH!!!' It's quite embarrassing actually, especially after a few vinos....

I always wake up the next day having lost another friend. LOL.

One of the things that has led me to start thinking that we may be 'different', is that we may have the capacity to actually do things for predominantely someone else's benefit.

But I'm not sure. Altruism is a myth designed by people to make themselves feel good. LOL.


PS, in regard to humanism being spiritual, that is what I was inferring to with my epiphany. It was like lightening striking, and it's become like a dogma...eeek.

Struth, very deep on a Saturday morning. I am more with Kennas but I do think we have a collective thinking which has some degree of connection with ESP. I read some Yung (in almost a past life now) and that gets one thinking a bit this way.

Not so subjective, the Ancients, then through to Alexander the Great certianly got on the spiritual bandwagon to give promise to mankind for his unquestion exploitation and the good of the King so to speak. Schivelery (Kinghts in armour) works similar but plays more on fear. The sociologist among us could have something to say here. What about the war on Terror, big correlation to me but I am not academic in this field.

But very interesting possibilities with this thread Kennas, good one

 

[wayneL]

I always wake up the next day having lost another friend. LOL.

LOL. I do that too.

PS, in regard to humanism being spiritual, that is what I was inferring to with my epiphany. It was like lightening striking, and it's become like a dogma...eeek.

One thing I am pretty confident of, you don't have to be spiritual to be spiritual. As a matter of fact I think we humans make to much of a fuss about it, what with churches, synagogues, sitting around in circles holding hands and saying OM, etc. LOL

There is a lot to be said for context. In a modern secular society, there is a lot to be said for bare bones humanism. More can be achieved that way than with shaving your head and dancing around chanting "Hare Krishna".

The funny thing about epiphanies is that each person epiphany is different to the next person. Saul/Paul's epiphany being diametrically opposed to yours for instance. Nevertheless, each epiphany is the truth for for that individual. Could it be that epiphanies are tailor made?

I dunno, I'm still waiting for mine. My truth(?) has been more of an evolution and is still a work in progress.

Altruism a myth to make us feel good? Yes can't argue with that. But it does make us feel good doesn't it?. Could that be an intentional thing or just a survival mechanism? Why does it make us feel good?

The reverse is also true, being an @sshole unjustifiably makes us feel bad (dunno why I keep doing that LOL). In searching for answers, the hard part is seeing past our cognitive biases.

 

[Sean K]

Struth, very deep on a Saturday morning. .....

I read some Yung (in almost a past life now) and that gets one thinking a bit this way.

Aplogies for the Sat am, it's Friday afternoon here, the day's young!!

I was a big fan of Jung, still am I suppose. Later in his career when he turned to Eastern Philospohy and combined it with psychoanalysis, I thought he was getting somewhere. The 'Collective Unconscious', that you refer to, is very interesting and it's something that hasn't probably being explored enough. (maybe for good reason though! )

I loved his stuff on Alchemy.

MDR is one of my favourite books.

He was a bit of a nut though in the end, like all psychologists and psychiatrists.

 

[Sean K]

Altruism a myth to make us feel good? Yes can't argue with that. But it does make us feel good doesn't it?. Could that be an intentional thing or just a survival mechanism? Why does it make us feel good?

This was a converstaion I had today at lunch with Rach after I went off the deep end last night with a firend of ours visiting. kennas the 'humanist preacher' out of control. It was ugly stuff.. ooooo.... damn Chilean red wine!!

I think Rach has convinced me that 'altruism' can exist. In the sense that when we do something for someone else's benefit, we do it for our own satisfaction, but there is also a benefit to the person you help. Sometimes this can be quite substantial. Perhaps the benefit for the other person is actually of greater benefit than to yourself? On the scale of things then, the act actually is 'altruistic' by balance....

Are we clutching at straws....

 

[Sean K]

There is a lot to be said for context. In a modern secular society, there is a lot to be said for bare bones humanism. More can be achieved that way than with shaving your head and dancing around chanting "Hare Krishna".

Yes, chanting, and even meditating, seem to be a little unproductive on the surface. Especially to the baby boomers! LOL Does this kind of activity in regard to someone's 'spirituality' lead them to be a better human being, within their culture, contributing to the greater good? Or, are they just stealing oxygen? I'm thinking the oxygen could be better used elsewhere...

Or, maybe that's the dogmatic humanist blinded to the benefits of lentils...

each epiphany is the truth for for that individual. Could it be that epiphanies are tailor made? I dunno, I'm still waiting for mine. My truth(?) has been more of an evolution and is still a work in progress.

I'm not sure if I'm talking the same concept of epiphany right now which is dangerous, so bare with me.... I'm not sure if they can be absolutely uniquely tailormade. I believe that we can only think and understand things that are part of our nature and nurture. We are not individuals in the sense that we are only biproducts of our environment. I am not an individual, I only act as I can according to my genes, and place. Therefore, I can only have an epipheny that is created by my genes and my culture. Aaaaah, I'm regressing....

 

[spooly74]

I
Just an animal with some special talents....

Totally agree ....monkeys to be precise

 

[yonnie]

Without a doubt we`re just another animal trying to survive on this rock as kennan puts it.

I sometimes put the word around just to shock people.

Unlike you kennan I dont believe that the human animal has so many "unique capabilities".

Cats have unique capabilities too: they can see in the dark and have nine lives.

Birds can fly (we dont, unless in akward airplanes)

Yes we do have a lot of technics as in sophisticated communication, but we dont know our neighbours.

Scientists/people always underestimate what our fellow animal can do and even what our ancient forefathers were capable of. they often have to admit that they were wrong.

Some still think that Columbus was the first seafarer who went all the way to the Americas and proved that the earth was not flat.

You are only assuming that animals have no empathy, abstract reasoning, introspection, the ability to plan for the future and environmental control.

I`ve been around animals long enough to see that a cow accepted a lost calf.
Squirrels gather nuts.
Goats eat everything in sight and can destroy their environment just like us.
And who knows what that cow is thinking while staring in the distance and chewing her cud.

No, we`re just an animal and should be a proud part of nature!

 

[Sean K]

Totally agree ....monkeys to be precise

That is absolutely gold spooly. GOLD!!!

But, can we do something for someone else, understanding that they are getting a better deal out of it?

Or, in the back of our mind, are we thinking karma blah blah, or that we will be repayed 10 fold for our kindness....etc...

 

[spooly74]

That is absolutely gold spooly. GOLD!!!

But, can we do something for someone else, understanding that they are getting a better deal out of it?

Yes certainly, but by giving/helping (think this is what you mean) and wanting nothing in return, you`ve already locked in the better deal.

Or, in the back of our mind, are we thinking karma blah blah, or that we will be repayed 10 fold for our kindness....etc...

Ahh but what happens when you don`t get repaid for your kindness ...
Do you become spiteful?....something monkeys (real monkeys ) are not capable of and imo one of the worst human traits.

 

[Sean K]

Ahh but what happens when you don`t get repaid for your kindness ...
Do you become spiteful?....something monkeys (real monkeys ) are not capable of and imo one of the worst human traits.

But we can get repaid in the afterlife.... Heaven, hell, karma, sends us to another plane in to our next rebirth etc....so, if you believe in that stuff, you will eventually get repaid. Golly, the cults of Abraham, and Hindu/Buddhism, have relied on this concept to control their people for the past 3000 years...

I'm not sure what this means though...

 

[explod]

But we can get repaid in the afterlife.... Heaven, hell, karma, sends us to another plane in to our next rebirth etc....so, if you believe in that stuff, you will eventually get repaid. Golly, the cults of Abraham, and Hindu/Buddhism, have relied on this concept to control their people for the past 3000 years...

I'm not sure what this means though...

Spot on and nailed Ken. The crap coming out of Walls Street to egg the mugs on so that the smart money can get out is the same. The sociologist/spin doctors have been the enslavers of mankind from the time he stood up to face the heavens

Great thread

 

[dhukka]

Being an 'animal' I have considered all our actions to be in aid of one basic goal; to survive - the meaning of life.

IMHO this is one of the problems in these kind of discussions - that there is an assumption on the part of humans that there is some meaning to life. To ask the questions: What is the meaning of life? Why are we here? etc. miss the point.

Why are we here? Irrelevant we are here. What is the meaning of life? Again irrelevant, life 'is' all you need to work out is how to 'be' (easier said than done)

 

[dhukka]

Ah WTF! I'll jump in anyway. LOL

If we truly have a spiritual side, an infinite soul so to speak, why earthly life?

To learn something?

To experience something opposite to the spirit? (developing a thought from a Taoist perspective)

To be tested?

I don't know. But if so, then our experience here is to just be as you say, to be just another animal, otherwise our purpos would be made much clearer.

Again with the why, forget about it wayne, it'll just do your head in, get on living.

 

[2020hindsight]

.... humans are just another animal trying to survive on this rock. ....

Just an animal with some special talents....

Being an 'animal' I have considered all our actions to be in aid of one basic goal; to survive - the meaning of life.

spot on kennas , maybe slight modification or two :-

animals which are capable of intelligence, but rarely bother ...

I would add , since this is a trading chatroom where we compare notes to "stay alive" financially ? (and I rarely deviate from the trading theme lol) ....

perhaps you made a typo.... ? Praps you meant ....

humans are just another animal typing to survive on this rock. ....

??

 

[Sean K]

spot on kennas , maybe slight modification or two :-

I would add , since this is a trading chatroom where we compare notes to "stay alive" financially ? (and I rarely deviate from the trading theme lol) ....

perhaps you made a typo.... ? Praps you meant ....

??

LOL. Yes, financially MUST be part of our word. I want a new plasma!!! he he.