The terrorists have won

[--B--]

The typical straw man argument is trotted out yet again that balanced argument is somehow supporting the Islamists. That Bill O'Reilly stuff getting a bit worn out mate.

there was no argument in his post that i could detect wayne. i hardly consider my comments a straw man argument.

Simply rattling off the number of deaths in the US and UK hardly constitutes a refutable argument. do you consider the fact that he has omitted many many deaths from the "toll" as balanced argument?

The truth is B, that statistically, there is more risk of being killed by the local nut-case than any terrorist attack. The impingement of civil liberties is simply not warranted by the actual threat and actually does SFA to stop the terrorism anyway.

what impingement of civil liberties are you referring to wayne? not being able to take toothpaste on a plane?

how are you able to say the measures introduced actually do SFA?

we have seen arrests in australia. are you able to say nothing would have happened had these arrests not taken place?

 

[wayneL]

Sorry Wayne, think you're missing the point...that being the zionist 'successfully' campaigned, the Arabs did not.

ps - meeting to attend so no one think I'm bailing this one!

I'm not missing any points, for my point was nothing to do with the zionists per se.

You made the point about the "assassins", intimating that this is an exclusively Islamic phenomenon and/or created by them.

Excuse me for a few moments while I recover from a fit of laughter.

Every society does that and always has done.

As far as the Zionist campaign; what is the difference between a campaign and terrorism? Well you already answered that. The winners campaign, the losers commit terrorism, but in reality the only difference is in perception, the mechanics are identical.

 

[wayneL]

there was no argument in his post that i could detect wayne. i hardly consider my comments a straw man argument.

[/QUOTE]

are you saying that we shouldnt do anything about islamic extremism?

A straw man is attributing to someone an argument they never made. That is what you have done in the above.

what impingement of civil liberties are you referring to wayne? not being able to take toothpaste on a plane?

Oh come on!

how are you able to say the measures introduced actually do SFA?

we have seen arrests in australia. are you able to say nothing would have happened had these arrests not taken place?

Explain how the the arrests would not have been made under the previous legislation and I'll concede the point. The truth is they have made no difference.

The most recent fiasco adequately demonstrates why these muppets should have the powers they do. Whether Haneef is guilty or innocent, these clowns have cocked up big time, an absolute comedy of errors, a litany of lies, and disgraceful @rse covering.

The additional powers simply remove rights from normal law abiding citizens and could be the slippery slope into something much worse.

 

[--B--]

A straw man is attributing to someone an argument they never made. That is what you have done in the above.

fair enough, i suppose in my haste to point out the sillyness of the post i neglected to detect the total lack of an argument.

Oh come on!

im genuinely interested for you to explain how your civil liberties have been impinged?

and as in the example of car accidents - would you consider the law that we must wear seat belts an impingement of your right not to?

sounds silly however i see remarkable similarities.

Explain how the the arrests would not have been made under the previous legislation and I'll concede the point. The truth is they have made no difference.

some research is required to refresh my knowledge however ill attempt this.

The most recent fiasco adequately demonstrates why these muppets should have the powers they do. Whether Haneef is guilty or innocent, these clowns have cocked up big time, an absolute comedy of errors, a litany of lies, and disgraceful @rse covering.

is your problem with the laws or those whose duty it is to enact / enforce them?

 

[mark70920]

This arrest isn't about terrorists , like the tampa wasn't about border control , it all about the upcoming election.

John Howard is playing wedge politics , they nail this bloke to cross guilty or innocent , they release very limited information create a public uproar and if the oppostion leader backs them, they accuse him of having no leadership skills , no vision etc if he opposes them he is accused of being weak against suspected terrorism etc, they then release additional information supporting their position making the opposition look even worse.(Just wait to election time and watch the new information spill out)

Your all being Conned by little John again

 

[--B--]

This arrest isn't about terrorists , like the tampa wasn't about border control , it all about the upcoming election.

John Howard is playing wedge politics , they nail this bloke to cross guilty or innocent , they release very limited information create a public uproar and if the oppostion leader backs them, they accuse him of having no leadership skills , no vision etc if he opposes them he is accused of being weak against suspected terrorism etc, they then release additional information supporting their position making the opposition look even worse.(Just wait to election time and watch the new information spill out)

Your all being Conned by little John again

lol... geez, evil johhny did well to arrange the terrorist attack in glasgow and the subsequent evidence against Haneef, and all the while ensuring the British govt,. numerous federal agencies and the leader of the opposition among others are all complicit in his election ploy...

funny stuff indeed....

 

[mark70920]

lol... geez, evil johhny did well to arrange the terrorist attack in glasgow and the subsequent evidence against Haneef, and all the while ensuring the British govt,. numerous federal agencies and the leader of the opposition among others are all complicit in his election ploy...

funny stuff indeed....

John Howard is an opportunist , he didn't sink that boat or pick them up in the Tampa either, he just siezed on there misfortune and used it to his political advantage.
Things were going badly in polls and when the Haneef brief hit his desk I bet you couldn't get the smile of his face , better than a lotto win for the Libs.

Do something popular badly so people are bound to criticise you and let the media and opposition do the rest. Wedge politics

 

[--B--]

.
Do something popular badly so people are bound to criticise you and let the media and opposition do the rest. Wedge politics

oh im quite sure many will criticise John Howard no matter what he does.

 

[Julia]

John Howard is an opportunist , he didn't sink that boat or pick them up in the Tampa either, he just siezed on there misfortune and used it to his political advantage.
Things were going badly in polls and when the Haneef brief hit his desk I bet you couldn't get the smile of his face , better than a lotto win for the Libs.

Do something popular badly so people are bound to criticise you and let the media and opposition do the rest. Wedge politics

Are you suggesting that if Kevin Rudd were currently in power he would not do exactly the same? They are all politicians. If they didn't use any given event to their political advantage we would accuse them of being asleep at the wheel.

Wayne: I'm also genuinely interested to know how your own personal rights have been affected by the terrorism legislation. I haven't experienced being unable to do anything I want to do.

 

[wayneL]

http://www.cla.asn.au/Articles/060808AreOurRights.pdf

 

[--B--]

what a cop out

 

[Julia]

http://www.cla.asn.au/Articles/060808AreOurRights.pdf

Wayne, that's 15 closely typed pages of someone else's words.
All I was looking for from you is a couple of sentences just explaining how you personally have actually been affected by the altered laws.

 

[chops_a_must]

Wayne, that's 15 closely typed pages of someone else's words.
All I was looking for from you is a couple of sentences just explaining how you personally have actually been affected by the altered laws.

Being photographed in public by undercover cops is a good one...

 

[wayneL]

Wayne, that's 15 closely typed pages of someone else's words.
All I was looking for from you is a couple of sentences just explaining how you personally have actually been affected by the altered laws.

I thought that would be compelling enough, but no.

Now to give you what you want would require me to give away details I don't want to give, but on small example:

I have 2 machines that are not networked. I often want to get info from one machine to the other, so rather than messing about with floppy disks, I just email it from one machine to the other. Takes a few moments to get to the server and back.

Last year, I sent some rather long Amibroker code via the same method, only after about an hour, it didn't arrive. Suspecting delays at the server, I sent a test email, which arrived within a minute.

4 HOURS LATER, my email of code turned up. Suspicious, I asked an acquaintance who works at the Geraldton Spy Station if emails get intercepted. Yep, they certainly do... and he said "you're probably on a list". WTF!

So, I've tested this a few times and played a few games, by throwing in a few innocuous "key words" in emails. They are always intercepted and take hours to arrive.

You may think that's ensuring your safety. I thinks it's unacceptable and on the slippery slope.

That's all I'll get into.

 

[caribean]

It's amazing isn't it...how many Australians have all of a sudden become interested in international politics....yes, don't scramble to your keyboards...i'm talking about the vast majority of Johny come lately's out there...if we are talking about "suitable" immigrants, then, we should be looking for people with aboriginal characteristics,since they have been here for tens of thousands of years, and we,for a mere two hundred or so......
oh!! yes i forgot,...but they lived like savages and never developed the land...
well at least they didn't pollute and trashed everything they touched...who are the greedy savages really??
Back to the point...i come from a different country and i do consider myself an assimilated Australian, and the first thing i noticed when i came here 20 or so years ago, is the general lack of interest in international politics, the only occasional comment i heard was: don't worry mate, those people "over there" have always killed each other, anyway....
I wonder how many people had an interest in it, prior to say, the recent events in the US....
And how many have been following what's been going on on this little planet the last 50 years or so....
What's been going on in places like South America, Central America, Africa, South East Asia.....
Believe it or not those beings, suffering "over there" are people just like you and i....
It appears that governments from certain countries have used the back yards of some of these people to play their little dirty wars on....and the ones that did not yield....well... divide and concour...
Can we really trust governments to do the right thing? that is the question....

 

[chops_a_must]

I wonder how many people had an interest in it, prior to say,9/11....
And how many have been following what's been going on on this little planet the last 50 years or so....
What's been going on in places like South America, Central America, Africa, South East Asia.....

Yep. After "9/11" I was concerned at how many people became experts on middle east politics. Given... I was only in year 12 at the time. But I had been involved in politics a long time before, watched foreign correspondent each week, lateline each night, and handed out how to vote cards. And no-one cares, or knows anything until something major happens, and by then it is too late to really gain any understanding without an emotional bias. But even in my teens, I felt that no-one had much of an understanding of international politics in australia, and it remains so. Which is disturbing.

 

[wayneL]

I wonder how many people had an interest in it, prior to say,9/11....

I received my wake up call in 1990.

 

[caribean]

Sorry people i changed "9/11" to "recent events in the US" not because i fear
i might be of interest to some foreign country's weird security organization,
(there was a very interesting doco on SBS about USA's NSA, Wayne), but because it suits the point better, besides that,if what they said in that doco is true, then i think i'm already marked anyway.

 

[disarray]

So, I've tested this a few times and played a few games, by throwing in a few innocuous "key words" in emails. They are always intercepted and take hours to arrive.

You may think that's ensuring your safety. I thinks it's unacceptable and on the slippery slope.

That's all I'll get into.

you want privacy? encrypt your emails. don't get into a flap because people are snooping, its hardly unexpected.

we should be looking for people with aboriginal characteristics,since they have been here for tens of thousands of years, and we,for a mere two hundred or so

no, we should be looking for people from cultures that are civilised, developed and don't have any religious hangups. asians have integrated well because their societies have all of these characteristics.

well at least they didn't pollute and trashed everything they touched...who are the greedy savages really??

human beings are the greedy savages. and aborigines were responsible for the extinction of the megafauna that once inhabited australia, and they brought fire as a method of land management. just because a people inhabit a place for thousands of years doesn't make them super magically in tune with mother earth or any crap like that.

But I had been involved in politics a long time before, watched foreign correspondent each week, lateline each night, and handed out how to vote cards

george negus was my hero. my first overseas adventure was to syria because of him.

I wonder how many people had an interest in it, prior to say, the recent events in the US

i think you'll find that this board probably has a higher percentage of people who are aware of world affairs than you would find on say, the big brother board

Can we really trust governments to do the right thing? that is the question

ummmm no. have we ever? of course not, human nature will always come to the fore.

 

[Kimosabi]

Originally Posted by caribean
I wonder how many people had an interest in it, prior to say,9/11....

Well, I bought all the anti-muslim crap after 9/11, hung around a Military Forum for a while trying to find out what was really going on in the World, then I got interested in shares/economics etc, because of the Resorces Boom, discovered http://ml-implode.com/, alternative economic/financial news, then came across Ron Paul, learned about Reserve Banks, etc, which then led to me looking at 9/11 again, boy has the last 6 months popped some brain cells...