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Clear and Understood

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wayneL said:
Ah but you see it is in the judgement of these social constructs where cognitive bias comes in. One culture's ideas may be outdated to us, but entirely relevant to them. All cultures view each others as infereior. The Japs think we're Gaijin, the Jews think we're Goyim, we think indigenous people as savages and so on. These are all subjective valuations and can only be measured by our own particular set of arbitrary values. This is a cognitive bias.
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So, while each culture, and sub culture, does have cognitive biases, do you think there are any universal principles that humans would agree are essential to assist in establishing and maintaining a global human society that allows us to be individuals yet cooperate and act in a way that is benificial to the greater good and happiness?

I was thinking about Islam and the West today, and cognitive biases, and why Muslims in the Middle East still want to follow the Koran, and even Shariah, and I had a thought that our disgust in their cultural approval of inequality and the like must be the same as their utter disgust for the West's hedonism and materialism, and why we ultimately have a war on terror. Maybe :confused:

(sorry for the long sentances)
 
kennas said:
So, while each culture, and sub culture, does have cognitive biases, do you think there are any universal principles that humans would agree are essential to assist in establishing and maintaining a global human society that allows us to be individuals yet cooperate and act in a way that is benificial to the greater good and happiness?
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Being an idealist, I'm sure there must be a formula that would achieve that goal; in fact I believe a great number of people of all bents sincerely try to live their lives with this ideal... including Muslims.

But also being a pragmatist, the realization is that this could never be so. There will always be those who are greedy, megalomaniacal, misogynistic, or just downright misanthropic. These folks manage to turn any Shangri-Lah into a dysfunctional sh*thole. It happens on every level of society, from a family, to the local bowls club, to government.

If people would only follow the "golden rule" or its various facsimiles, universally, it wouldn't matter what culture they lived in.

kennas said:
I was thinking about Islam and the West today, and cognitive biases, and why Muslims in the Middle East still want to follow the Koran, and even Shariah, and I had a thought that our disgust in their cultural approval of inequality and the like must be the same as their utter disgust for the West's hedonism and materialism, and why we ultimately have a war on terror. Maybe :confused:

(sorry for the long sentances)
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The fraudulent "war on terror", or indeed genuine terrorism, (which it could be argued the war on terror actually is) was never about cultures or religions. It is about money, power and oil. Religion and culture is only the catalyst the elite use to inflame the passions of the plebs, so they can get soldiers.
 
kennas said:
I thought we were generally discussing Islam, or more specifically fundamentalist Islam?
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surprised you disagree with my proposed alternatie thread titles there kennas - but I leave it to others to decide if it needs changing, and/or to what.

at the moment, the topic of this thread is not quite "clear nor understood" imo;)
a) Rushdi gets knighthood
b) (some) reasonable Moslems take (some) offense
c) others (extreme?) suggest Bin Laden be given the equivalent Islam knighthood
d) what should be our reaction to it

(If 've defined the topic of the thread incorrectly, then pls set me straight - just that it's never been clear to me.)

Almost 3 or 4 parts of that article to discuss.

Do we believe the press? yes for a and b no doubt - but how serious is c?
If it's a media beatup, are we going to help by getting a possie rounded up to ride north at high noon etc

sure, we end up discussing fundamentalist Islam I guess ;)
just that the thread title is ambiguous. :2twocents
just speaking generally here.

Meanwhile I've also enjoyed your blokes comments - "Bias Blind Spots" lol - even defined on Wikipedia ;)
 
2020hindsight said:
surprised you disagree with my proposed alternatie thread titles there kennas - but I leave it to others to decide if it needs changing, and/or to what.

at the moment, the topic of this thread is not quite "clear nor understood" imo;)
a) Rushdi gets knighthood
b) (some) reasonable Moslems take (some) offense
c) others (extreme?) suggest Bin Laden be given the equivalent Islam knighthood
d) what should be our reaction to it

(If 've defined the topic of the thread incorrectly, then pls set me straight - just that it's never been clear to me.)

Almost 3 or 4 parts of that article to discuss.

Do we believe the press? yes for a and b no doubt - but how serious is c?
If it's a media beatup, are we going to help by getting a possie rounded up to ride north at high noon etc

sure, we end up discussing fundamentalist Islam I guess ;)
just that the thread title is ambiguous. :2twocents
just speaking generally here.

Meanwhile I've also enjoyed your blokes comments - "Bias Blind Spots" lol - even defined on Wikipedia ;)
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20/20,

Your suggestions were sufficient I believe.:)

For what it is worth I disagree with the knighthood. I won't discuss why though.

Cheers..
 
wayneL said:
The fraudulent "war on terror", or indeed genuine terrorism, (which it could be argued the war on terror actually is) was never about cultures or religions. It is about money, power and oil. Religion and culture is only the catalyst the elite use to inflame the passions of the plebs, so they can get soldiers.
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quoted for truth
 
wayneL said:
The fraudulent "war on terror", or indeed genuine terrorism, (which it could be argued the war on terror actually is) was never about cultures or religions. It is about money, power and oil. Religion and culture is only the catalyst the elite use to inflame the passions of the plebs, so they can get soldiers.
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Ahh, at least somebody on this thread knows what they are talking about ;)
Good stuff Wayne, i agree wholly.

Snake, are you listening?

2020 - I agree with Snake :eek: and disagree with Rushdie knighthood, as for your point #c, i feel i could put up a reasonable case, but for the sake of having respect for others, lets not go there :)
 
"war on terror" in Afghanistan I would say is/was a legitimate reaction to Twin Towers. (wont go back any further than that for this discussion - believe last time we ended up talking about Lawrence of Arabia, lol ;))

we didnt get the bad guy because of ... (if you watched that TV interview of the US Army officer whose men had him in their sights, you'd have to conclude) a fair share of incompetence. Wikipedia also made reference to it as "the biggest mistake the US lead army made".

both of those wars have been sold to thousands of US soldiers and hundreds of Aus, (who punch way above their weight incidentally) - a few (in Iraq) are starting to doubt their case no doubt.

now they have to go back into Afghanistan to finish what they started - against a new and envigorated enemy, and killing a lot of civilians in the process etc - recipe for disaster if we're not careful :(

and sure we went into Iraq for all the wrong reasons - nothing to do with AQ that's for sure, but Hussein "talked back" a lot and sure he had oil. Hard to know which was the cake, and which was the icing on it. But I agree nothing to do with AQ. :2twocents

As for the Rushdi knighthood, just sounds bizarre to me that the Poms even went there. (I agree with Snake lol) - only a bludy knighthood after all - ;)
and balance that against the extra security he'll now need as a direct result etc.

let's not forget the importance of "eternal vigilance" is now very real indeed. But since the start of Iraq war, we have mainly ourselves to blame.

let's not forget the second stage of the 'terrorism' (a 'demonstation' by loonies) just after 9/11, when Anthrax powder suddenly started showing up in mailed packages - and crippled normal functioning of society. :2twocents

but I'm getting probably getting off the thread. sufice to say -

If wayneL/ dissaray's theory that the war on terror is really just the west acting out of selfishness ... ( and i agree to some extent, in Iraq at least) then...

what are we still doing in Iraq,? (US Democrats even folding after getting a mandate etc), and
why are a large percentage if not the majority of Aus voters still hoodwinked?
 
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It's Snake Pliskin said:
20/20, Wayne, Nizar et al.

Clear and understood - no pun intended.

A disturbing argument those guys had.
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It certainly did nothing to raise my opinion of Falwell from out of the gutter.

Sheesh! I wonder what Jesus (whichever version of deity/human/myth ascribed to) would have thought of that? I mean whether or not you agree with him, it's trash talk from a Christian clergyman.
 
Interview With Former Malaysian PM Mahathis Mohammad: Part 1
Part 2
AQ spring offensive etc
just posting this as "food for thought and/or comment".
Amazing these days that you can so easily research how the other side of the conflict is thinking :2twocents ( not that Mahathis is necessarily defending AQ, but he sure as hell has a low opinion on US and UK - and , although not mentioned, presumably also Aus. )
 
2020hindsight said:
AQ spring offensive etc
just posting this as "food for thought and/or comment".
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Strangely enough when I found that last youtube and posted it last weekend - prior to my knowing the identity of the London & Glasgow bombers, at the time, I couldn't help noticing the medical student learning to be a suicide bomber :(

struck me as being a far cry from the normal image of them. :2twocents

And now I find that London and Glasgow used doctors - and now (even) Gold Coast doctors!! involved.
 

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If this happens in Britain, what is going on in Iran, and other traditional (backward) Muslim societies where it's condoned? This is just plain wrong in the modern world, but was probably justifiable in the year 500 in Saudi, to maintain that societies cohesion. Now? Unfortunately, there seems to be quite a number of Muslims striving for Sharia, and honor killings are part of the game.

Dad of 'honour killing' victim gets life
July 21, 2007 - 9:19AM

The father and uncle of a woman who was brutally murdered for falling in love with the wrong man were sentenced to life in prison in London.

The 2006 murder of 20-year-old Banaz Mahmod, who was strangled after two hours of torture and sexual abuse, was the latest in an increasing trend of so-called "honour killings" in Britain, home to about 1.8 million Muslims.

Mahmod was a member of an Iraqi Kurd family which had emigrated to Britain in 1998.

Her father, Mahmod Mahmod, and uncle Ari Mahmod, were sentenced after being found guilty of ordering the killing.

A third man, Mohamad Hama, who had pleaded guilty to taking part in the killing, was sentenced to at least 17 years in prison.

Mahmod's family accused her of shaming them by ending an abusive arranged marriage, becoming too Westernised and falling in love with a man who did not come from their village.

The elder Mahmods ordered the killing after discovering she was having a relationship with an Iranian Kurd.

"This was a barbaric and callous crime," said Judge Brian Barker. "You are hard and unswerving men to whom apparently the respect from the community is more important that your own flesh and blood."

The court had heard evidence from her boyfriend, Rahmat Sulemani, and her sister, Bekhal, who fled the family in fear of her own life.

During the trial, the jury was told how the victim's attempts to get help were dismissed by police.

She first went to police in December 2005, when she suspected her uncle was trying to kill her and her boyfriend.

She sent the police a letter naming the men she thought would later kill her.

On New Year's Eve 2005, she was lured by her father to her grandmother's home, where her father forced her to gulp down brandy and approached her in a menacing manner.

She escaped by breaking a window, and was treated at a hospital.

One police officer, who now faces investigation, considered arresting Banaz Mahmod for damaging her grandmother's window.

Sulemani recorded video testimony at the hospital in which Banaz Mahmod said she was "really scared". This was later played in court.

After leaving the hospital, she tried to convince her family the relationship was over, but the couple were spotted together.

The killing occurred several days later, and her body was disposed of in a suitcase.
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kennas said:
If this happens in Britain, what is going on in Iran, and other traditional (backward) Muslim societies where it's condoned? This is just plain wrong in the modern world, but was probably justifiable in the year 500 in Saudi, to maintain that societies cohesion. Now? Unfortunately, there seems to be quite a number of Muslims striving for Sharia, and honor killings are part of the game.
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She was raped by her dad and brother, or they watched, before being killed by the sounds. :( :(

Woman raped before "honor killing": court
Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:54AM EDT

LONDON (Reuters) - A Kurdish woman was brutally raped, stamped on and strangled by members of her family and their friends in an "honor killing" carried out at her London home because she had fallen in love with the wrong man.

Banaz Mahmod, 20, was subjected to the 2-1/2 hour ordeal before she was garroted with a bootlace. Her body was stuffed into a suitcase and taken about 100 miles to Birmingham where it was buried in the back garden of a house.

Last month a jury found her father Mahmod Mahmod, 52, and his brother Ari Mahmod, 51, guilty of murder after a three-month trial. Their associate Mohamad Hama, 30, had earlier admitted killing her.
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Kathmandu said:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Dave
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that site is misrepresentative leftist rubbish.

from the site - "The count includes civilian deaths caused by coalition military action and by military or paramilitary responses to the coalition presence (e.g. insurgent and terrorist attacks). It also includes excess civilian deaths caused by criminal action resulting from the breakdown in law and order which followed the coalition invasion."

these idiots are holding the west responsible for murders committed by muslim jihadis and bandits (which comprise the bulk of the bodycount). once again its the leftist victim mentality bleeding their hearts all over the floor and blaming the evil white man for everything instead of, oh i don't know, violent criminals maybe? psychotic jihadis? a culture of guns, violence and aggression? no no, its all the fault of the evil west.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_conflict_in_Iraq_since_2003
 
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