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The future of energy generation and storage

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sptrawler said:
Slowly the information is being dribbled out.

“I could never find a business case:” Renewable bosses say gas power will require its own underwriting scheme

Renewables industry says gas plants have no hope of competing with batteries in CIS, but will need its own underwriting scheme.
reneweconomy.com.au
Click to expand...
It is not rocket science, if you are allowed to install a battery, charge it only with free power between 11am and 2 pm, and then can wait till demand is exploding and power expensive, you make a killing .
I am sure the zealots will say: "show you renewable is cheaper "
But it is pretty clear we can not run a 24/7 grid like that.
Why subsidies to gas, why not a charter forcing the provision of power on a consistent 24h supply, then renewable power companies can sort their own problem, potentially via solar/wind venture, batteries, who cares
You do not connect to a water network with someone saying, and by ghe way, yiu will only have water during floods
 
This is becoming a familiar issue, as we near 2030, the rulers are out and more companies are deciding whether it is all worth it or not..

It is beginning to sound like, the taxpayer might end up paying for the companies carbon credits, what a classic brain fart if that happens. :roflmao:

My guess is Alumina will be getting the ruler over it at the moment, announcements may ramp up after the election, when there is less political heat.


One of the world's biggest miners, Glencore, is asking for financial backing from the Queensland and federal governments to keep Mount Isa's copper smelter in operation.

There are only two copper smelters in Australia, the other being in South Australia, and Queensland MP Robbie Katter said the country could not risk losing them.
At the final community meeting before the copper mine closure, Glencore's chief operating officer for Australian zinc and copper assets Sam Strohmayr announced the ongoing restoration of the copper smelter was under review.

In South Australia, another smelter is staring down a similar future and pitching for government intervention.

Singapore-based multinational company Trafigura — parent company to Nyrstar Australia — owns the Port Pirie Lead Smelter in South Australia.

Although it processes a different mineral, in a different state, the outcomes and bottom line appears to be the same.
Last month, the company's CEO Richard Holtum was quoted as telling the Financial Times Commodities Global Summit the SA smelter was an "uncompetitive asset", which "shouldn't be in fully private hands"




Some of the 2030 legislation requirements:
  • Safeguard Mechanism:
    This mechanism, also known as the "Safeguard Mechanism (Crediting) Amendment Act 2023", requires Australia's most emissions-intensive facilities to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions.

  • Emissions Reduction Targets:
    These facilities must align their emissions with Australia's targets of a 43% reduction below 2005 levels by 2030 and net zero by 2050.

  • Baseline and Excess Emissions:
    Facilities have baselines set for their emissions, and if they exceed these baselines, they must manage the excess emissions.

  • Options for Managing Excess Emissions:
    Facilities can manage excess emissions by:
    • Reducing emissions: Implementing measures to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions.

    • Buying and surrendering ACCUs or SMCs: Purchasing and surrendering ACCUs or SMCs to cover the volume of carbon emissions that exceed their baselines.
  • Australian Carbon Credit Unit (ACCU) Scheme:
    This scheme encourages projects that reduce emissions or store carbon, and the credits generated can be used to offset emissions.

  • Safeguard Mechanism Credit Units (SMCs):
    These are credits generated by facilities that reduce their emissions below their baseline, and can be used to offset emissions.

  • Compliance:
    Companies or other entities that emit greenhouse gases may be required to offset a portion of their emissions by purchasing and cancelling carbon credits or contribute to the generation of renewable energy.
 
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sptrawler said:
Slowly the information is being dribbled out.

“I could never find a business case:” Renewable bosses say gas power will require its own underwriting scheme

Renewables industry says gas plants have no hope of competing with batteries in CIS, but will need its own underwriting scheme.
reneweconomy.com.au
Click to expand...

Very thoughtful story.

There is a need to have a "break glass in emergency" option beyond solar, wind, batteries/hydro. Standby by gas turbines are one such option. I wonder if current gas turbines can be cost effectively refurbished ? The article points out new turbines can't even be ordered at this stage. Even then the final cost is 4 times the current cost.

Is there an opportunity for refurbishing current turbines - particularly if the requirement is "break glass in emergency " usage ? It may not be done now but could some clever engineers come up with a solution ?

Alternatively are there other "break glass options " that could be developed ?
 
sptrawler said:
Well it will certainly bring a lot of issues to a head, bring it on IMO, the sooner the better.
Click to expand...
This proposal is, in the view of almost all industry players, a very well thought out win-win-win solution to resolving many of the issues with high PV uptake.

1) A big increase in home batteries (and/or car EV connections) will enable excess solar to not tax the current transmission systems and instead smooth out peak demand requirements.

2) Home owners obtain a direct financial savings for their investment. The initial 4k savings will finally make the ROI reasonable

3) The inclusion of VPP (Virtual Power Plant) requirements for the batteries adds an option for an extra source of household return AND an additional opportunity to smooth out peak power surges and thus eyewateringly high peak power charges. This benefits all users including those without solar power/batteries (but not the power companies)

4) It will be a boost to local employment.

5) It is also a big boon for business. The whole package will make economic sense for many businesses with roof space and needs for cheaper power. The package has the capacity to offer up to 100 Kwr batteries.

6) It is also open to Off Grid users.

Smurf is quite right in pointing that from a strictly efficiency POV big batteries would be more cost effective as storage for excess solar. However the capacity for individual home owners and businesses to reap the economic value would then diminish. And I also wouldn't trust owners of big batteries (often power companies) to not game the system as they currently do.

Home battery rebate hailed as most crucial consumer energy policy since rooftop solar. Here’s how it will work

The home battery rebate is being hailed as the most significant consumer energy policy in decades. Here’s how it will work and who will benefit.
reneweconomy.com.au
 
SirRumpole said:
Old aircraft jet engines perhaps?
Click to expand...
That's interesting. I was probably thinking of ways to produce critical wear components. I have also seen enough engineers at work to recognise that if a new product was going to cost 4 times the replacement unit and take years to obtain then alternative engineering solutions could be found.

The first one is always the biggets challenge. If that is sorted out then subsequent refurbs would be relatively styraightfoeward.

I wonder if a well informed, well scripted AI could offer possible solutions ?
 
basilio said:
Smurf is quite right in pointing that from a strictly efficiency POV big batteries would be more cost effective as storage for excess solar.
Click to expand...
The problem as I understand it is keeping the grid running for days or even weeks of inclement weather such as we have had in Qld and NSW over the last few weeks. What's been keeping the grid going ?

Coal and gas.

Unless we find a replacement for those, in the long term we are stuffed. It's either got to be nuclear or hydro. One of those is financially ridiculous, the other we have already done, know how to do, and just requires political guts.
 
basilio said:
There is a need to have a "break glass in emergency" option beyond solar, wind, batteries/hydro. Standby by gas turbines are one such option. I wonder if current gas turbines can be cost effectively refurbished ? The article points out new turbines can't even be ordered at this stage. Even then the final cost is 4 times the current cost.

Is there an opportunity for refurbishing current turbines - particularly if the requirement is "break glass in emergency " usage ? It may not be done now but could some clever engineers come up with a solution ?

Alternatively are there other "break glass options " that could be developed ?
Click to expand...
In terms of the need, personally I'd be willing to bet the farm on any technology so long as it's designed and operated in accordance with proper engineering criteria, is adequate for the load placed upon it, and there's a properly assessed failure probability along with trigger thresholds which identify when it's at risk.

That's a lot of words but point is they can all work so long as they're done so as to make them work, and they'll all fail without that.

As for refurbishing things, well if someone really wants to do it then anything is possible. Realistically however the are some practical limits.

One facility, three gas turbines, in Australia has recently been refurbished with second hand parts from Germany. There were some complexity around the legal aspects of that, the owners of the facility in Germany wanted to demolish the lot and just get rid of it, so it was basically a case of buying the lot as salvage material and disposing of what wasn't wanted.

Long story short enough good parts have been obtained to get an estimated 15 years out of the three units. Cost $15 million or so.

Such opportunities are of course limited. There has to be someone scrapping identical equipment, there have to be good parts in it, they have to be willing to sell, etc. Also have to be careful to not import anything prohibited, eg asbestos, along with it.

Ultimately though with thermal plant a point will come where everything's old and tired, where a refurbishment is pretty much a replacement anyway apart from using the same concrete slab and keeping the same front gate and so on.

Now parts could be manufactured of course but in that sense Australia has a problem. Not only do we not have any OEM gas or steam turbine manufacturing, but we also don't have much left in terms of heavy engineering workshops in general. At this point we're pretty heavily reliant on others in Japan, USA, Germany, UAE and elsewhere.

Another option is internal combustion engines, ship engines basically. In SA we do have the Barker Inlet power station, built and owned by AGL as a purely private project (ie not in any way government funded) and that's based on 12 x 17.5MW internal combustion engines. In a technical sense they're diesel cycle engines, compression ignition, but they can and do run predominantly on natural gas with only a minor injection of diesel to provide the ignition on each power stroke. They can alternatively switch to full diesel operation if required.

Not actually fitted at Barker Inlet but operation on heavy fuel oil is also possible as is a combined cycle steam arrangement, the "off the shelf" OEM design for which is to recover heat from 12 engines to run a single 30 MW steam turbine. So that raises plant capacity from 210MW to 240MW without any increase in fuel consumption, but with greater capital expenditure required. Whilst that's not actually fitted at Barker Inlet, the decision to install 12 engines was intentional and does leave that door open.

That is of course still a fossil fuel option, it's just a different approach at the technical level. Fuel efficiency beats open cycle gas turbines but not as good as combined cycle. Downside is higher capital cost compared with open cycle gas and considerably greater ongoing maintenance. :2twocents
 
qldfrog said:
steam train hooked to generator?
Click to expand...
I recall a large factory that ~35 years ago due to a boiler breakdown did in fact have a steam locomotive sitting there feeding steam into the factory in order to keep production going.

Rail line goes past the factory so the loco got there under its own power. Just had to be lifted off the tracks, sat in a suitable spot and pipes connected. :2twocents
 
sptrawler said:
Infinite Green energy put in administration
Click to expand...
Just crooks: from the afr
Hydrogen hopeful Infinite Green Energy collapses into administration
By Jesinta Burton
April 8, 2025 — 9.22am
Perth-based hydrogen player Infinite Green Energy has brought in administrators less than 24 hours before a court hearing in a multimillion-dollar debt dispute its chief executive claimed the WA Premier could resolve.

KordaMentha’s Richard Tucker and Jared Palandri were handed the reins to the company and nine of its associated entities on Monday, according to documents filed with the corporate regulator.

The appointment came just hours before IGE had been due to front the Supreme Court in an investor row it had successfully kept under wraps until it was revealed by WAtoday, which is understood to have sent stakeholders scrambling to secure their investments.

For the past six weeks, IGE has been fending off a bid by Queensland-based investor DD Investment to have liquidators appointed over its failure to repay a $3.85 million debt
According to court documents obtained by this masthead, IGE’s chief Stephen Gauld had attempted to thwart the bid by claiming he could call on the premier to obtain $5 million to service the debt.

The application followed a judgment DD Investment secured to recover funds outstanding from a May 2023 investment deal inked before their relationship soured.

The investment firm told the court it had grave concerns about IGE’s financial health and its capacity to recover the debt, submitting six months’ worth of correspondence laying bare its efforts to recover the funds and IGE’s repeated claims that payment was imminent.

But the most damning piece of correspondence was from Deutsche Bank’s anti-financial crime department, which claimed bank transfer documents IGE sent were inauthentic and should be treated with a “high degree of scepticism”.

Gauld, who represented the company before engaging lawyers Edwards Mac Scovell, pinned the delays on challenging global markets before claiming he could obtain $5 million from a taxpayer fund for economic diversification.

“If I need to go to Roger Cook tomorrow or Monday next week and say, ‘Roger, listen’ because he has got $60 million right now for renewable energy projects … Roger could give us $5 million from the [investment] attraction fund,” Gauld told the court, according to transcripts of the proceedings.

“I can go back to him next week and say, ‘Listen, we’ve got an urgent commitment, I need another $5 million’, and we will get this all done. It’s not an issue.”

Blackwall Legal’s Chris Pearce appeared in court on behalf of KordaMentha on Tuesday, successfully arguing for a week-long adjournment of the matter to allow the newly-appointed administrators to prepare.

The delay had been opposed by DD Investment’s lawyer Martin Bennett, who told the court his client had been forced to wait long enough for the enforcement of a judgment ordering that the payment be processed.

Court documents obtained by this masthead indicate IGE had failed to meet its court deadlines ahead of Tuesday’s hearing, including those set for the submission of its defence.

IGE and Gauld had previously denied the allegations and called for the wind-up application to be thrown out, claiming there was no evidence its assets were in jeopardy and branding the appointment of a liquidator a “drastic intrusion” into its affairs.

IGE’s lawyers at Edwards Mac Scovell declined to answer questions related to the case, but confirmed it was still acting for the company.

While acknowledging he had worked with the company and its officials, Cook was adamant he did not have a personal relationship with Gauld and the release of such funds were subject to stringent oversight.

“I have no idea why he would make that comment. I have no personal relationship with Stephen, but he is at one of our renewable energy companies and obviously, I work with him and his colleagues on a regular basis,” Cook told WAtoday.

“We need to make sure these monies are deployed in the most appropriate way, which is why the companies are subject to stringent oversight by the department, but also subject to meeting milestones as part of that payment process.”
‘Listen, Roger’: Green energy boss name-drops WA premier in bid to stave off wind-up, bogus invoice claims
WAtoday understands the company met the initial milestones necessary for the release of around $1.5 million, but that the department has since suspended payments because progress has stalled.

This masthead has spoken with a number of shareholders since the allegations were aired who expressed concerns about the company’s future and a desire to see a change of leadership.

IGE has attracted several high-profile investors, including reclusive billionaire Kie Chie Wong, who made his fortune as an early investor in Andrew Forrest’s Fortescue Metals Group, and Sydney investor Lance Rosenberg’s Glenagle.

Concerns about the financial health of the company were first raised more than two years ago, when auditors at Grant Thornton warned they had doubts about the group’s ability to continue as a going concern.

At the time, the group had incurred an operating loss of $26.5 million, had a working capital deficit of $7.8 million and net cash flow of just $2.4 million.

The 2022/23 financial report was the last to be filed with the corporate watchdog.

The clean hydrogen hopeful, formerly Infinite Blue Energy, is behind several projects earmarked for Western Australia worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

IGE and partners Samsung C&T and Doral Energy have been trying to secure approval to build a $127 million small-scale hydrogen production facility in Northam, which was backed by the WA government in 2023 to the tune of $5 million but has struggled to garner support from planning authorities.

The appointment comes as the state’s environmental watchdog pores over IGE’s Arrowsmith Hydrogen Plant plans, which involve the construction of a wind and solar-powered hydrogen production facility across a 1929 hectare property about 30 kilometres south of Dongara.

IGE had hoped to produce first gas in the second half of 2026.

The company had also joined forces with Swiss energy giant Axpo on the Valle Peligna project in central Italy, which, if successful, would be one of the largest commercial-scale hydrogen plants in Southern Europe.

The project received the backing of the federal government’s investment commission Austrade and the Australian Embassy.

IGE’s project partners Samsung C&T and Doral declined to comment.

The appointment also comes almost 12 months after a board exodus at IGE, led by its chair and former Woodside chief Peter Coleman. The company’s chief financial officer departed eight weeks later.
 
Interesting and goes back to what I said early on in the thread, the enormity of the issue isn't recognised, not only does existing power stations have to be mitigated, but future growth has to be included.
It will all boil back to energy density in the end IMO.
The solution will become obvious, eventually.

40 percent of world's power clean but emissions rising - report

More clean electricity was generated in 2024 but there was a rise in the amount of coal and gas burnt too.
www.bbc.com

More than 40 percent of the world's electricity was generated without burning fossil fuels in 2024, according to a new report from think-tank Ember.

But carbon dioxide emissions, which warm the planet, have risen to an all time high, the report says, with hot weather pushing up the overall demand for power.

Ember is a global energy think tank which has been predicting for several years that emissions of the climate warming gas carbon dioxide were about to start falling.

But this hasn't happened yet due to increasing global demand for electricity.
The report says that clean energy sources contributed more than 40% of global electricity generation for the first time since the 1940s. Back then demand was much lower, and hydroelectric power stations contributed a significant share.

The big picture is that the rise in the global demand for electricity continues to outpace the growth in renewable energy.

In the last five years, fast-growing Asian economies, in particular India and China, have continued expanding their use of fossil fuels to meet rapidly rising demand for electricity

Clean energy powered 40% of global electricity in 2024, report finds

Thinktank says solar has been fastest-growing energy source for last 20 years, but remains dwarfed by hydro power
www.theguardian.com
Here is the Guardians take on it for the sake of balance
 
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Smurf1976 said:
One facility, three gas turbines, in Australia has recently been refurbished with second hand parts from Germany. There were some complexity around the legal aspects of that, the owners of the facility in Germany wanted to demolish the lot and just get rid of it, so it was basically a case of buying the lot as salvage material and disposing of what wasn't wanted.

Long story short enough good parts have been obtained to get an estimated 15 years out of the three units. Cost $15 million or so.
Click to expand...
WOW !! That seems amazingly good value. Obviously I don't know the size of the plants and perhaps the $15m was parts only not the whole reconstruction.

The critical point you raise Smurf is that creative, quality engineering could come up with solutions to refurbish/ rejig or create some new "break glass" option. Given that these units would only be intended for quite intermittent use it seems economically crazy to spend huge bucks on totally new gear vs a range of creative hacks.

Perhaps it would be an interesting "contest" for small engineering companies to come up with solutions. Some prizes and recognition at the end. ?
 


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