Ukraine War

[JohnDe]

Zelensky has handled the US poorly.

It is commendable to stand up to a bully, but when you have one either side of you it is smarter to play the bullies against each other.

Zelensky should have shut his mouth, got the deal done, and then used some clever and wise words later.

 

[IFocus]

Comment sums it up


Let ‘s get a truly unprecedented event straight: Trump betrayed an ally at war a second time.
He reduced the indiscriminate destruction of his ally ‘s country to a ‘bad negotiating position’. Reduced the heroic and justified defense of a nation to ‘refusing to make peace’.
Trump accused the beleaguered president, NOT the attacker, of ‘gambling with the start of WWIII’, simply for refusing to surrender. Acting under the delusion of being a great dealmaker, he pushed the monetization of his ally ‘s distress by forcing him into making a ‘good deal’ and just wouldn‘t stop using the ‘playing cards’ expression.
Adding insult to injury, Trump and Vance whined about the lack of gratitude they experienced for their betrayal. All this happened while this foreign head of state was a guest in their house.
In doing so, Trump followed Putin ‘s agenda like a slave. As usual.
This whole disaster of incompetence unfolded IN THE WHITE HOUSE, IN FRONT OF THE WORLD PRESS, with Trump jesting that it was ‘great television’. MAGA just means: making America the laughing stock again, isolated, shunned, alone.
Who is going to investigate the ‘kompromat’ that Putin has over Trump?

 

[JohnDe]

 

[moXJO]

Comment sums it up


Let ‘s get a truly unprecedented event straight: Trump betrayed an ally at war a second time.
He reduced the indiscriminate destruction of his ally ‘s country to a ‘bad negotiating position’. Reduced the heroic and justified defense of a nation to ‘refusing to make peace’.
Trump accused the beleaguered president, NOT the attacker, of ‘gambling with the start of WWIII’, simply for refusing to surrender. Acting under the delusion of being a great dealmaker, he pushed the monetization of his ally ‘s distress by forcing him into making a ‘good deal’ and just wouldn‘t stop using the ‘playing cards’ expression.
Adding insult to injury, Trump and Vance whined about the lack of gratitude they experienced for their betrayal. All this happened while this foreign head of state was a guest in their house.
In doing so, Trump followed Putin ‘s agenda like a slave. As usual.
This whole disaster of incompetence unfolded IN THE WHITE HOUSE, IN FRONT OF THE WORLD PRESS, with Trump jesting that it was ‘great television’. MAGA just means: making America the laughing stock again, isolated, shunned, alone.
Who is going to investigate the ‘kompromat’ that Putin has over Trump?

Sums it up if you are a retard. Focusing on that one incident and ignoring everything else is real legit. Getting to a ceasefire prevents more casualties. Rough estimate is about 2000 killed/wounded both sides. We go all out war to push Russia out and its going to be tens of thousands. When did resolving a war through diplomacy become such a second thought?

Russia isn't some small backwater. It's a superpower that has modernised its tactics in Ukraine. Also some of the biggest nukes on the planet. They will inevitably keep creeping forward gaining ground the longer it drags on.

Zelensky is a corrupt installed puppet. Most likely by Victor Pinchuk (very pro west) and Igor Kolomoyskyi (this guy ended up arrested though). Zelensky played the president on a TV show before the oligarchs installed him. All three have links to Israel so US by proxy.
You also had Pandora Papers revelations and a bunch of govt and military getting locked up for corruption. Ukraine is known for corruption.

Add in the CIA, Obama, the Biden corruption, biolabs, election rigging followed by election coup and a million other things. It all stinks. The whole thing is like a movie with a million sub-plots.


So if they want to keep dying then they can lose more citizens. If Russia moved on Poland that's different and I'd be for war. But US and Europe brushed too far up against Russia and wanted to drop missile defence in Ukraine. Russia will now keep fighting no matter what for that buffer space. So it's either WW3 or sit at the negotiating table.

 

[JohnDe]

 

[sptrawler]

Comment sums it up


Let ‘s get a truly unprecedented event straight: Trump betrayed an ally at war a second time.
He reduced the indiscriminate destruction of his ally ‘s country to a ‘bad negotiating position’. Reduced the heroic and justified defense of a nation to ‘refusing to make peace’.
Trump accused the beleaguered president, NOT the attacker, of ‘gambling with the start of WWIII’, simply for refusing to surrender. Acting under the delusion of being a great dealmaker, he pushed the monetization of his ally ‘s distress by forcing him into making a ‘good deal’ and just wouldn‘t stop using the ‘playing cards’ expression.
Adding insult to injury, Trump and Vance whined about the lack of gratitude they experienced for their betrayal. All this happened while this foreign head of state was a guest in their house.
In doing so, Trump followed Putin ‘s agenda like a slave. As usual.
This whole disaster of incompetence unfolded IN THE WHITE HOUSE, IN FRONT OF THE WORLD PRESS, with Trump jesting that it was ‘great television’. MAGA just means: making America the laughing stock again, isolated, shunned, alone.
Who is going to investigate the ‘kompromat’ that Putin has over Trump?

In reality, Zelenskyy in typical arrogant left wing protocol, went to Trump for handout money, Trump said only on these conditions Zelensky said no and then they started arguing.

Zelenskyy's fall back position was for Europe to come to the party and stump up the money, the U.K wants to lend it to them, which is the same as Trump just put a different way.

The EU kind of looks down and starts mumbling and kicking the stones around at their feet, which is what the EU does.
So now the left wing approach of brow beating and demanding has failed, they have to go back to the U.S cap in hand and mumbling sorry.

Obviously the left wing lunatics, ran up against right wing lunatics and reality broke through as usually happens, eventually..

 

[Knobby22]

 

[sptrawler]

Cartoons aren't really appropriate, in such a terrible conflict and such a dangerous situation IMO.

Western countries bludging on the U.S and then lambasting them when the U.S gets fed up with it, really just shows the level of entitlement in the Western countries.

The EU should be able to defend itself and be enough of a deterent to stop Russia, the reality is, they have been letting the U.S spend their money on defense, so that the EU didn't have to spend any and could free load on the U.S.

It couldn't go on forever and really if it wasn't Trump it would have been someone else, the fact that Trump is rude and obnoxious just means it happened sooner rather than later IMO.
But it had to happen, the U.S is going broke by all accounts, also most Western countries have been bagging the U.S for years about wars on foriegn soil, Howard was constantly being criticised for supporting them.

Funny how things change.

 

[JohnDe]

 

[IFocus]

In reality, Zelenskyy in typical arrogant left wing protocol, went to Trump for handout money, Trump said only on these conditions Zelensky said no and then they started arguing.

Zelenskyy's fall back position was for Europe to come to the party and stump up the money, the U.K wants to lend it to them, which is the same as Trump just put a different way.

The EU kind of looks down and starts mumbling and kicking the stones around at their feet, which is what the EU does.
So now the left wing approach of brow beating and demanding has failed, they have to go back to the U.S cap in hand and mumbling sorry.

Obviously the left wing lunatics, ran up against right wing lunatics and reality broke through as usually happens, eventually..

What? Nothing to do with left politics. Trump wanted a deal with no guarantee no sfa but was going to take minerals for nothing meanwhile Russia keeps killing its neighbour which bit did you miss? Trump is a coward fine just a note on US spending they sent all their old ordinance equipment with limitations and only recently sent high end weapons.

 

[Knobby22]

He just repeats Russian propaganda. They have not spend half as much as he said. Hope he gets a peace treaty. If it's just a temporary ceasefire then this war will continue.

 

[sptrawler]

What? Nothing to do with left politics. Trump wanted a deal with no guarantee no sfa but was going to take minerals for nothing meanwhile Russia keeps killing its neighbour which bit did you miss? Trump is a coward fine just a note on US spending they sent all their old ordinance equipment with limitations and only recently sent high end weapons.

if that was true, Zelenskyy would tell Trump to pizz of and get the UK and EU to sort it out, you must dream this stuff up.
The EU UK and Aust will be buying heaps of US arms, which will help the US bankbook.

 

[IFocus]

Former President of Poland Lech Walesa wrote the following letter to Trump.

Your Excellency, Mr. President,

We watched the report of your conversation with the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, with fear and distaste. We find it insulting that you expect Ukraine to show respect and gratitude for the material assistance provided by the United States in its fight against russia. Gratitude is owed to the heroic Ukrainian soldiers who shed their blood in defense of the values of the free world. They have been dying on the front lines for more than 11 years in the name of these values and the independence of their homeland, which was attacked by Putin’s russia.

We do not understand how the leader of a country that symbolizes the free world cannot recognize this.

Our alarm was also heightened by the atmosphere in the Oval Office during this conversation, which reminded us of the interrogations we endured at the hands of the Security Services and the debates in Communist courts. Prosecutors and judges, acting on behalf of the all-powerful communist political police, would explain to us that they held all the power while we held none. They demanded that we cease our activities, arguing that thousands of innocent people suffered because of us. They stripped us of our freedoms and civil rights because we refused to cooperate with the government or express gratitude for our oppression. We are shocked that President Volodymyr Zelensky was treated in the same manner.

The history of the 20th century shows that whenever the United States sought to distance itself from democratic values and its European allies, it ultimately became a threat to itself. President Woodrow Wilson understood this when he decided in 1917 that the United States must join World War I. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt understood this when, after the attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941, he resolved that the war to defend America must be fought not only in the Pacific but also in Europe, in alliance with the nations under attack by the Third Reich.

We remember that without President Ronald Reagan and America’s financial commitment, the collapse of the Soviet empire would not have been possible. President Reagan recognized that millions of enslaved people suffered in Soviet russia and the countries it had subjugated, including thousands of political prisoners who paid for their defense of democratic values with their freedom. His greatness lay, among other things, in his unwavering decision to call the USSR an “Empire of Evil” and to fight it decisively. We won, and today, the statue of President Ronald Reagan stands in Warsaw, facing the U.S. Embassy.

Mr. President, material aid—military and financial—can never be equated with the blood shed in the name of Ukraine’s independence and the freedom of Europe and the entire free world. Human life is priceless; its value cannot be measured in money. Gratitude is due to those who sacrifice their blood and their freedom. This is self-evident to us, the people of Solidarity, former political prisoners of the communist regime under Soviet russia.

We call on the United States to uphold the guarantees made alongside Great Britain in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, which established a direct obligation to defend Ukraine’s territorial integrity in exchange for its relinquishment of nuclear weapons. These guarantees are unconditional—there is no mention of treating such assistance as an economic transaction.

Signed,

Lech Wałęsa, former political prisoner, President of Poland

 

[moXJO]

Russia will not stop as Ukraine is literally the last place before NATO has a complete front line against the Russian border. This war is not winnable and the next step is escalation on Russia's part.

 

[Dona Ferentes]

Russia plays two cards
1. the international victim
2. escalation (nukes) against any resistance

But the reality, it is the aggressor

 

[JohnDe]

Washington simply can’t afford to support another forever war in Ukraine, quite aside from the likely loss of life that ultimately includes US troops. ​

The US has World War II levels of debt without having remotely fought a world war. Public debt as a share of GDP in the US is already 100 per cent and on track for 118 per cent within a decade, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Spending on interest already exceeds spending on the military. US budget deficits of $US2 trillion ($3.1 trillion) a year, more than 6 per cent of GDP, have been pencilled in as far as the eye can see.​

There’s economic method behind the Trumpian upheaval

Decades ago I read a quote from a sage who opined that politics was a product of economics, and economics, in turn, a product of the human condition – or something along those lines.
I’ve never been able since to track down who said it, but the truth of the observation struck me.

Donald Trump’s plans to up-end the global trading system by imposing hefty tariffs on even US allies have shocked and infuriated elite opinion everywhere. So has his refusal to offer formal security guarantees to Ukraine and seeming total lack of interest in continuing the US-led proxy war with Russia.

While Trump’s rhetorical justifications vary, these policies likely have the same underlying economic cause. The American fiscal position is diabolically bad.

Washington simply can’t afford to support another forever war in Ukraine, quite aside from the likely loss of life that ultimately includes US troops.

The tsunami of TDS (Trump derangement syndrome) that has crashed over newsrooms right and left in recent weeks has left the public largely clueless about this undeniable fact.

The US has World War II levels of debt without having remotely fought a world war. Public debt as a share of GDP in the US is already 100 per cent and on track for 118 per cent within a decade, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Spending on interest already exceeds spending on the military. US budget deficits of $US2 trillion ($3.1 trillion) a year, more than 6 per cent of GDP, have been pencilled in as far as the eye can see.

As the minter of the world’s reserve currency the US can get away with such profligacy for a lot longer than other nations but not forever. The Afghanistan quagmire cost the US more than $US1 trillion across 20 years according to estimates from Brown University. Imagine the cost of a conventional war with Russia on the other side of the world.

Similarly, Trump’s highly controversial plans to jack up tariffs can be seen as a covert way to raise revenues without resorting to politically toxic tax increases.

Indeed, Republicans can even say tariffs are not about revenue but the politically appealing goal of “bringing jobs home”, however much economists may dispute that likelihood. Think of the tariffs as a consumption tax that would never be passed by a Republican-controlled Senate.

In 2024 the Washington-based Tax Foundation estimated that a 20 per cent universal tariff, the sort of which Trump has proposed repeatedly, would raise more than $US3 trillion across the decade to 2035. That’s serious money, enough to at least dent the extraordinary $US2 trillion in annual deficits Washington has pencilled in for years.

Choose tariffs or fiscal collapse, they are the only two choices.

Far from expanding its military footprint, the Pentagon is planning cuts of about 8 per cent a year to the nearly $US1 trillion annual military budget. And Trump has flagged pursuing a three-way agreement with China and Russia to curb spending on nuclear weapons. Economic reality is starting to bite hard.

Europe is in no better economic position to fight. European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen has announced €800bn ($1.3 trillion) of new spending on military equipment to bolster the bloc’s emaciated, inexperienced forces. Bond yields on the vast quantum of German, French and British debt have jumped significantly already. Where is this money going to come from? The likeliest answer is inflationary money creation.

President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen arrives at crisis talks in Brussels. Picture: AFP

When economics does enter the debate about support for Ukraine or tariffs it’s at a rather superficial level. When a market as big and lucrative as the US imposes tariffs, some of the tariff burden will indeed fall on foreigners, who will cut the prices of their exports to absorb part of the tariff to remain competitive against US domestic rivals.

Simplistic comparisons between Russia’s relatively small GDP and that of the EU and the US also are misleading.

First, relatively poor nations tend to be more formidable adversaries because their citizens tend to be more patriotic and therefore far more willing to fight. Russia hasn’t yet had to resort to mass conscription (the 2022 partial mobilisation called up reserves) in its war in Ukraine.

The governments of France, Germany and Britain, widely loathed by their voting publics, would have a much harder time finding proportionately similar numbers without civil unrest.

Furthermore, bloated Western governments, whose economies are based mostly on household consumption, have already lifted taxes to almost the maximum level their economies can bear.

They are in no position to wage a serious or sustained war without huge and politically disastrous spending cuts.

Indeed, the top marginal income tax rates of totalitarian Russia and communist China are both lower, significantly so in Russia’s case, than those in Australia, Europe and even the US: 22 per cent in Russia (where most Russians pay 13 per cent) and 45 per cent in China, a little below Australia’s top 47 per cent rate.

The stock of debt, accumulation of which is a necessity in wartime, is revealing too: China’s is significant at about 90 per cent, but Russia’s is barely 20 per cent.

A strong case can be made that economic exigencies, especially the parlous state of the US budget, are dictating Trump’s most controversial policies. Even his tough line on immigration, including plans to deport millions of low-skilled workers, has been cast as a push to crack down on crime or even a cultural preservation exercise.

But it could equally be a policy to put upward pressure on US wages, especially of low-skilled workers, to offset some of the impact of looming tariffs.

The most proximate cause of our fiscal poverty, and all the unfortunate policies arising from it, was the crazy response to Covid that severely weakened Western nations economically.

The same people who cheered those policies are often the same ones demanding the US fund a forever war in Europe. You can’t have everything, I’m afraid.

 

[sptrawler]

Washington simply can’t afford to support another forever war in Ukraine, quite aside from the likely loss of life that ultimately includes US troops. ​

The US has World War II levels of debt without having remotely fought a world war. Public debt as a share of GDP in the US is already 100 per cent and on track for 118 per cent within a decade, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Spending on interest already exceeds spending on the military. US budget deficits of $US2 trillion ($3.1 trillion) a year, more than 6 per cent of GDP, have been pencilled in as far as the eye can see.​

IMO that's the underlying issue, causing most of the problems, the West has lost its fiscal responsibility and China/Russia are trying to exploit it.

If the U.S loses the reserve currency status the West is done, as China will take over the control of each countries exchange rate and money printing will not be an option any longer.

The West has to get more fiscally responsible, you just have to listen to our politicians making promises hand over fist pre election, to realise there is no plan other than throwing money around with gay abandon. There is no structural changes announced, to turn around any of our failing institutions, failing industries or failing housing just throw more money at anything that sounds popular.

Trump is a huge disrupter, but the West needs that to shake the tree and get countries to get their house in order, or China will quietly screw the West while Russia provides the misdirection IMO.

Only my opinion, same as everyone else on the forum and about the same value as everyone else's.

 

[moXJO]

Russia plays two cards
1. the international victim
2. escalation (nukes) against any resistance

But the reality, it is the aggressor

Absolutely true.
But there's a history of encroachment that I think now became the line in the sand. Eventually reality has to hit.
I want to know what Europe thinks the endgame is to all this.

 

[basilio]

What? Nothing to do with left politics. Trump wanted a deal with no guarantee no sfa but was going to take minerals for nothing meanwhile Russia keeps killing its neighbour which bit did you miss? Trump is a coward fine just a note on US spending they sent all their old ordinance equipment with limitations and only recently sent high end weapons.

Well worth noting just how much the US military aid , which Trump wants backs in spades and rare earths, "cost" the US.

Copy comes from Country First site.
..................................................................
Friend --

Democracy is under attack—and we need you to take action.

Join us for our next Dayof Action as we lobby key members of Congress to stand withUkraine and oppose any attempt by the Trump Administration to throwUkraine under the bus.

At Country First, we believe America’s foreign policy reflects our values—it defines who we are as a nation and what we stand for.

Yet, we’ve seen the Trump Administration distort history, absurdly claiming that Ukraine invaded Russia, and that President Zelensky is a dictator. Give me a break. And now, they want Ukraine to pay the United States back for any assistance provided. But when you have a President who only understands transactional dealing and transactional relationships, this is not surprising.

The actions of the President and Vice President in the OvalOffice today was an absolute disgrace.

Let’s Set the Record Straight:

• Money for Ukraine Aid is largely spent right here in the U.S.—funding American defense contractors to build more weapons and munitions.
• Much of the assistance has come from retired U.S. defense equipment—not taxpayer cash being handed out. And that retired equipment is assigned a $ value
• This is about defending democracy at home and abroad—because if we let Putin win, authoritarians everywhere will be emboldened.
• The actions of the President and Vice President today telegraphed to the murderous thug, Putin, that he has the upper hand.

Join us this Thursday, March 6, 2025 for our Day of Action.
Keep up the pressure. Standup for Ukraine.

Sign up now for our Dayof Action and help us demand that Congress hold the line againstPutin’s aggression.


Adam Kinzinger
https://www.country1st.com/

 

[Dona Ferentes]

Not much difference between Bucha and Be'eri kibbutz.