Battery technologies for a fast charging and changing world

[Craton]

Progress, is undeniable. It's part of our human nature to development towards an improved or more advanced condition. One such progress is battery technology and one could argue that the quartz watch had a lot to do with advancing battery tech.
Some may remember that those first quartz watches needed the battery replaced two or three times per year.

With the advent of modern electronics, EV and the global demand for alternative energy sources and storage helping to propel battery Li-ion development. However, most of us know that Lithium is a finite resource, that Li-ion batteries are prone to "crash and burn" so-to-speak and the materials to used to make these are expensive.

Li-ion dominants but:

Unfortunately, demand will likely soon far outstrip supply, and projections of earth’s total lithium stores indicate that the resource may soon be depleted – as early as 2040 by some estimates.

...and...

[Li-ion batteries] ...are not without their downsides, however, requiring expensive cathode and anode materials in the form of cobalt, nickel, manganese and aluminium.

So again researching out of my own interest and looking at expanding/adding to my investments, I was pleasantly surprised at the variety of new (and not so new) tech in the battery space.

A battery needs a method of charging so charging technology has also progressed with Telsa and StoreDot at the forefront:

Tesla’s new 4680 battery format promises yet another step forward in electric vehicle capabilities, but it isn’t ready for largescale production just yet. Also, while it promises more range for less cost, Tesla’s new cell design still doesn’t fix one of the major criticisms of battery-electric vehicles – how long they take to “refuel”. Israeli company StoreDot thinks it has the answer and has developed a prototype 4680 cell to prove it. Charging to 100% takes just 10 minutes.

Associated with charging time is the charging cycle and for the gold bugs among us:

Gold nanowire gel electrolyte batteries
Also seeking a better electrolyte for lithium ion batteries, researchers at the University of California, Irvine experimented with gels, which are not as combustible as liquids. They tried coating gold nanowires with manganese dioxide, then covering them with electrolyte gel. While nanowires are usually too delicate to use in batteries, these had become resilient. When the researchers charged the resulting electrode, they discovered that it went through 200,000 cycles without losing its ability to hold a charge. That compares to 6,000 cycles in a conventional battery.

Other battery tech that's piqued my interest:

Li-S - Lithium-Sulfer
Na-ion - Sodium ion
Alum-ion (60x faster charging than Li-ion)
C-ion (100x faster charging than Li-ion)
Vanadium redox flow batteries (VRFB).
Zn-ion - cheaper but heavier than Li-ion

Solid State batteries

Solid state batteries represent a paradigm shift in terms of technology. In modern li-ion batteries, ions move from one electrode to another across the liquid electrolyte (also called ionic conductivity). In all-solid state batteries, the liquid electrolyte is replaced by a solid compound which nevertheless allows lithium ions to migrate within it. This concept is far from new, but over the past 10 years – thanks to intensive worldwide research – new families of solid electrolytes have been discovered with very high ionic conductivity, similar to liquid electrolyte, allowing this particular technological barrier to be overcome.

Progress in battery tech sure looks positive. Feel free to add to this incomplete list.

 

[SirRumpole]

Are we talking about EV batteries, grid storage batteries, or consumer electronics batteries ?

They all have their special requirements.

Some battery technologies are in this thread.

The future of energy generation and storage

No xhit Sherlock... The AMEO plan to massively upgrade power transmission lines is (far) easier said than done. But one way or another it has to be done.. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-01/how-aemo-plans-to-fix-broken-energy-system-australia/101196758

www.aussiestockforums.com

Zinc bromide seems a good thing, but the road to ruin is paved with good intentions.

 

[Craton]

Are we talking about EV batteries, grid storage batteries, or consumer electronics batteries ?

They all have their special requirements.

Some battery technologies are in this thread.

The future of energy generation and storage

No xhit Sherlock... The AMEO plan to massively upgrade power transmission lines is (far) easier said than done. But one way or another it has to be done.. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-01/how-aemo-plans-to-fix-broken-energy-system-australia/101196758

www.aussiestockforums.com

Zinc bromide seems a good thing, but the road to ruin is paved with good intentions.

Yes, I did see that thread however am focusing on nothing specific, just a blanket covering of all types of batteries across all industries and applications.

E.g.
Carbon-Ion (C-ion) from ZapGo Ltd, a UK company has the same scalability as Li-ion and is claiming sublime charge times with their technology. Imagine charging your cordless drill in 15 secs! That is freaking amazing but will it scale up?
That's certainly ZapGo's aim.

‘Instant Charging’ Technology to Fully Charge a Device in Less Than 15 Seconds ​

ZapGo Ltd., a developer of Carbon-Ion cells, a fast-charging alternative to lithium batteries, has demonstrated it can perform a full charge of a device in a matter of seconds. To achieve almost instant charging, the company’s Carbon-Ion cells are built into both a power pack and a cordless device (such as a power drill) so that the energy transfer occurs directly from one to the other. With this technology, the charge rate is not dependent on how much energy the batteries can take in, or on the output of the electrical grid, as it is with conventional lithium-ion batteries.

The implications of this demonstration are far-reaching. Electric vehicles (EVs) are in the spotlight as governments urge their adoption to combat urban pollution. More than one million vehicles are expected to be sold this year and some automakers are committing to making 25 percent or more of their output battery-powered within the next decade.

Stephen Voller, Zap&Go’s CEO, said, “We have successfully demonstrated how to reduce recharge times from hours to five minutes with our Carbon-Ion cells and ‘instant charging’ represents the next stage of the development of our technology. Since we have the technology to charge a cordless drill in 15 seconds, we expect to be able similarly improve EV charging rates, thereby solving one of the main obstacles to making EVs the new standard.”

 

[Smurf1976]

magine charging your cordless drill in 15 secs! That is freaking amazing but will it scale up?

There are practical limits.

For a mobile phone sure it could work since a 15 second charge is still within the limits of power able to be supplied from a standard 10A socket. It's a power draw similar to that of a hairdryer.

However too charge the 85kWh battery in an EV in 15 seconds would require over 20,000 kW of power input, that is over 20MW. And that's without even considering losses.

The logistics of getting that sort of power to individual houses are prohibitive and even for commercial premises it requires some serious planning and the construction of dedicated assets. We're talking about the entire output of a small power station, or about 1% of the output of a major coal or nuclear station, going to a single point after all.

For context well the whole of Victoria, including Melbourne, including trains and trams, including heavy industry etc, is using about 7000 MW right now. So the idea of putting 20MW into individual devices to charge them gets out of hand real quick.

Physics and practical reality limits how far it scales. Phones sure, if a battery can be made that works well then there's nothing else really limiting it, but for things road vehicles no chance at least not unless we're going to run transmission lines pretty much everywhere.

 

[moXJO]

There are practical limits.

For a mobile phone sure it could work since a 15 second charge is still within the limits of power able to be supplied from a standard 10A socket. It's a power draw similar to that of a hairdryer.

However too charge the 85kWh battery in an EV in 15 seconds would require over 20,000 kW of power input, that is over 20MW. And that's without even considering losses.

The logistics of getting that sort of power to individual houses are prohibitive and even for commercial premises it requires some serious planning and the construction of dedicated assets. We're talking about the entire output of a small power station, or about 1% of the output of a major coal or nuclear station, going to a single point after all.

For context well the whole of Victoria, including Melbourne, including trains and trams, including heavy industry etc, is using about 7000 MW right now. So the idea of putting 20MW into individual devices to charge them gets out of hand real quick.

Physics and practical reality limits how far it scales. Phones sure, if a battery can be made that works well then there's nothing else really limiting it, but for things road vehicles no chance at least not unless we're going to run transmission lines pretty much everywhere.

So technically I can setup a lighting rod and charge all the evs in town under 1 second?
Sure there maybe some melting and burning, but BAM charged.

 

[waterbottle]

Perhaps power stations will be the future versions of petrol stations, whereby you drive in for a quick charge. Powered by green energy of course.

 

[Value Collector]

There are practical limits.

For a mobile phone sure it could work since a 15 second charge is still within the limits of power able to be supplied from a standard 10A socket. It's a power draw similar to that of a hairdryer.

However too charge the 85kWh battery in an EV in 15 seconds would require over 20,000 kW of power input, that is over 20MW. And that's without even considering losses.

The logistics of getting that sort of power to individual houses are prohibitive and even for commercial premises it requires some serious planning and the construction of dedicated assets. We're talking about the entire output of a small power station, or about 1% of the output of a major coal or nuclear station, going to a single point after all.

For context well the whole of Victoria, including Melbourne, including trains and trams, including heavy industry etc, is using about 7000 MW right now. So the idea of putting 20MW into individual devices to charge them gets out of hand real quick.

Physics and practical reality limits how far it scales. Phones sure, if a battery can be made that works well then there's nothing else really limiting it, but for things road vehicles no chance at least not unless we're going to run transmission lines pretty much everywhere.

Also, who would ever need an EV battery that charges in 15 seconds? Unless you are planning on starting an EV F1 racing team it would be useless for anything more than bragging rights.

There aren’t just practical limits of the infrastructure, but practical limits of the human body, eg by the time you have used a full battery you need more than a 15 second break, so you could invest in 15second infrastructure, but your car is still going to be sitting around for ages doing nothing, and may as well been doing a more practical slower charge.

 

[Smurf1976]

Also, who would ever need an EV battery that charges in 15 seconds? Unless you are planning on starting an EV F1 racing team it would be useless for anything more than bragging rights.

Totally agree in theory.

In practice however, humans often do strange things.....

 

[Craton]

There are practical limits.

For a mobile phone sure it could work since a 15 second charge is still within the limits of power able to be supplied from a standard 10A socket. It's a power draw similar to that of a hairdryer.

However too charge the 85kWh battery in an EV in 15 seconds would require over 20,000 kW of power input, that is over 20MW. And that's without even considering losses.

The logistics of getting that sort of power to individual houses are prohibitive and even for commercial premises it requires some serious planning and the construction of dedicated assets. We're talking about the entire output of a small power station, or about 1% of the output of a major coal or nuclear station, going to a single point after all.

For context well the whole of Victoria, including Melbourne, including trains and trams, including heavy industry etc, is using about 7000 MW right now. So the idea of putting 20MW into individual devices to charge them gets out of hand real quick.

Physics and practical reality limits how far it scales. Phones sure, if a battery can be made that works well then there's nothing else really limiting it, but for things road vehicles no chance at least not unless we're going to run transmission lines pretty much everywhere.

As a "energy" man, certainly value your input on the electrical power requirements but, charging an EV in 15 secs is not the claim.

From that article:

"Since we have the technology to charge a cordless drill in 15 seconds, we expect to be able similarly improve EV charging rates, thereby solving one of the main obstacles to making EVs the new standard.”

Their talking in minutes for an EV.

Link: Carbon-Ion Energy

EXTREME FAST-CHARGING​

Helping to make this scenario feasible is the next-generation of EVs that will support Extreme Fast Charging (XFC). This allows charging stations to operate at megawatt rates of charge, according to TransportXtra—10 times faster than the current Tesla superchargers. At these rates, recharging an EV for a 300-mile (450 km) range is possible in just five minutes. C-Ion technology is well suited for upgrading the power output of recharging stations where the grid infrastructure is limited.

 

[SirRumpole]

Liquid metal batteries, another possibility.



@Smurf1976 may have some issues with some of the material presented here.

 

[Smurf1976]

@Smurf1976 may have some issues with some of the material presented here

I could certainly pick apart a lot of technical details about what happened in SA but the one I'll focus on is the claim that pumped hydro is not scalable and that lithium ion batteries are presently the best option.

Given that individual hydro operators have more capacity than the entire worldwide capacity of lithium ion batteries, it's a nonsense claim. It's the equivalent of talking about fast food and dismissing the existence of McDonald's, it's bending the truth rather drastically.

There's certainly a role for batteries in energy storage in mobile devices of any sort and there's a role for them in the grid for fast response. Beyond that though, for bulk energy storage, pumped hydro at circa 10 USD per kWh of capacity is far cheaper than any present battery but, and here's the problem, still rather expensive as such.

That's not arguing against batteries or the technology, just saying that the video isn't telling the full story on the economics and market side.

 

[Country Lad]

New battery REDOX (iron) manufacturing facility being built in Maryborough by Energy Storage Industries - Asia Pacific (ESI) with another planned for Gladstone or Townsville. A bit odd to have the first one at Maryborough when the product is destined for export.

 

[qldfrog]

New battery REDOX (iron) manufacturing facility being built in Maryborough by Energy Storage Industries - Asia Pacific (ESI) with another planned for Gladstone or Townsville. A bit odd to have the first one at Maryborough when the product is destined for export.

Was in Maryborough today? Mary Poppins birthplace so i like the dream there.
Wish them good??

 

[Craton]

@Country Lad's post: REDOX: IFRB aka ISB

Advantages​

The advantage of redox-flow batteries in general is the separate scalability of power and energy, which makes them good candidates for stationary energy storage systems.[3] This is because the power is only dependent on the stack size while the capacity is only dependent on the electrolyte volume.[5]

As the electrolyte is based on water, it is non-flammable. All electrolyte components are non-toxic and abundantly available. The reactants in both half-cells are soluble salts of the same species and only differ in their oxidation state (Fe0, Fe2+, Fe3+). This means that unwanted membrane crossover of the active species does not lead to irreversible reactant loss,[2] but can be rebalanced using either a trickle-bed reactor or a fuel cell.[3][9] Iron chloride is cheaply and widely available as it is a by-product for steel production.[1]

The IRFB is stable within different temperature ranges, therefore, the stationary energy storage can be used in regions with higher temperature without the need of a thermal management system. [5] The battery efficiency would even benefit from higher temperatures. Other battery types (e.g. Vanadium-Redox-Flow Batteries (VRFB)) cannot perform at higher temperatures. For instance, toxic Vanadium pentoxide (V2O5) in VRFBs precipitates at ~ 40 °C.[13]

Overall, the components are low in cost (2 $/kg iron) and abundantly available. All the other parts (e.g. membrane, bipolar plate, monopolar plate, frames, gaskets, pumps) are widely available on the market and associated costs can be expected to decrease as production of these batteries scales up.

Additionally, compared to lithium-ion batteries with expected lifetimes of ~1000 cycles, the IRFB promises a potential battery lifetime of > 20 years with over 10.000 cycles.[1]

Disadvantages​

The capacity is not solely dependent on the electrolyte volume as is the case with other RFBs which are only based on electrochemical reactions in solution (e.g. VRFB). Rather, in an IRFB the plating iron volume within the negative half-cell has an influence on the capacity. Thus, the energy capacity and stack size are not completely decoupled as is the case with other RFB.[7]

During the charge reaction, hydrogen evolves on the negative side, reducing coulombic efficiency. Additionally, the pH increase leads to insoluble Fe(OH)3 (rust) precipitation which untreated can lead to cell death. However, a rebalancing system can bring the IRFB back to a state of health.[3]

Compared to non-RFB systems, all flow batteries include auxiliary components such as pumps and valves, which do require a regular maintenance cycle.

 

[Country Lad]

Was in Maryborough today? Mary Poppins birthplace so i like the dream there.
Wish them good??

@qldfrog, I hope you had the chance to go to the markets and to the Story Bank which is now a Mary Poppins museum and where PJ Travers was born.

 

[Value Collector]

I could certainly pick apart a lot of technical details about what happened in SA but the one I'll focus on is the claim that pumped hydro is not scalable and that lithium ion batteries are presently the best option.

Given that individual hydro operators have more capacity than the entire worldwide capacity of lithium ion batteries, it's a nonsense claim. It's the equivalent of talking about fast food and dismissing the existence of McDonald's, it's bending the truth rather drastically.

There's certainly a role for batteries in energy storage in mobile devices of any sort and there's a role for them in the grid for fast response. Beyond that though, for bulk energy storage, pumped hydro at circa 10 USD per kWh of capacity is far cheaper than any present battery but, and here's the problem, still rather expensive as such.

That's not arguing against batteries or the technology, just saying that the video isn't telling the full story on the economics and market side.

I have been thinking for a while about a possible option that I don’t know is possible or not.

But grid companies have mentioned that during certain parts of the day parts of local networks can be over whelmed by the amount of solar power generated.

When you look at local distribution power lines, every few hundred metres there is a big transformer sitting up on the power pole.

Do you think that to help solve excess solar power during the day and to also help with peak demand that a distributed network of battery boxes could be installed on the power poles every few hundred metres in neighbourhoods that produce a lot of excess solar just like the transformers?

 

[Value Collector]

@qldfrog, I hope you had the chance to go to the markets and to the Story Bank which is now a Mary Poppins museum and where PJ Travers was born.

Where is that? Sorry I can’t see Qldfrogs side of the conversation

 

[Country Lad]

Where is that? Sorry I can’t see Qldfrogs side of the conversation

Story Bank
331 Kent St, Maryborough QLD 4650

 

[qldfrog]

@qldfrog, I hope you had the chance to go to the markets and to the Story Bank which is now a Mary Poppins museum and where PJ Travers was born.

Did have breakfast at the market, the Story bank and along the river.Most pleasant town with a strong heritage.would deserve more wealth to preserve its building.
A rich history, or a sad witness to the relative demise of Australia,
like Bendigo, etc, etc..so many.places
100y ago, Australia had a small population and great wealth per habitant,based on gold mining, agriculture and some industry expressed in majestic stone buildings and infrastructure: rail, warf, civil engineering.
Fast forward 100y, our real wealth per habitant has shrunk,and is expressed in NDIS, pensions, submarine moneypit, no more industry and vast agricultural best land areas covered by suburbs of matchstick homes which will collapse in 30y.
Our politicians and voters should cry in shame.

 

[Smurf1976]

Do you think that to help solve excess solar power during the day and to also help with peak demand that a distributed network of battery boxes could be installed on the power poles every few hundred metres in neighbourhoods that produce a lot of excess solar just like the transformers?

Technically it could certainly be done.

Location wouldn't be critical so long as it's on the correct side of the constraint. That is, wouldn't have to be right next to the transformer (though it could be) just so long as it's on the right side of it electrically.

There's a "kill two birds with the one stone" aspect to that since in addition to alleviating a local constraint, it's also making a contribution to the overall system's peak supply capacity. A small contribution perhaps, but still it's adding something so there's a benefit there.

There have been some trials along these lines in WA:

The WA trial involves suburban areas on the main grid so is straightforward as a concept.

And also on Bruny Island (Tasmania) where centralised operation of batteries installed at customer sites (mostly households) has been used to alleviate constraints on peak power capacity to the island.

As background Bruny Island is connected to the main Tasmanian grid via two undersea cables which, due to load growth (the island has become a popular tourist destination in recent times), have become inadequate at times of peak demand in the event that either cable fails, thus leading to an insecure operating state. The conventional solution to that has been a diesel generator on the island ready to operate when required but batteries with centrally co-ordinated operation are a partial alternative (or a full one if there's enough of them).