Retrospective - Paul Keating as economic manager

[3 hound]

I think Paul Keating inspired more young people to study or at least be aware of economics than any other Aussie politician.

I was too young to form any kind of opinion about his abilities but I used to think he was a very suave & sophisticated new type of Australian compared to the average beer swilling, heavily unionised, mullet wearing, winnie blue chain smoking Ocker I grew up around at the time.

Given the prevalence of economist types on here how does his performance and record rate historically?

 

[SirRumpole]

I think Paul Keating inspired more young people to study or at least be aware of economics than any other Aussie politician.

I was too young to form any kind of opinion about his abilities but I used to think he was a very suave & sophisticated new type of Australian compared to the average beer swilling, heavily unionised, mullet wearing, winnie blue chain smoking Ocker I grew up around at the time.

Given the prevalence of economist types on here how does his performance and record rate historically?

The recession we had to have ?

18% interest rates ?

Cutting tariff protection causing the death of manufacturing ?

I'm sure there are some good things too, but the above are what I remember.

 

[wayneL]

Keating's "economic rationalism" destroyed many industries in Aus. It strangled my father's furniture manufacturing business into invisibility.

Finished lounge suites had tarriffs reduced to 5%, then completely removed, yet many of the raw materials required to manufacture here still carried high tarriffs.

One major component (the biggest material input) was upholstery fabric which continued to carry a 40% tarriff, yet there were no local mills to "protect" and that is only one example.

That put him at a substantive punitive disadvantage to imports.

He made good stuff but it became increasingly difficult for enough people to justify the massive price difference.

Then there was the recession. Didn't go BK, but he just eventually shut the doors.

 

[3 hound]

I remember the phrase now "economic rationalism" could not access any media of the time without hearing it.


With the tariffs isn't that just globalisation of goods that we all have been completely addicted to and the eager beneficiaries of ever since?

TBH not many Aussies when it comes down to it support Australian made if they have a choice of saving $2. Publicly we love to pretend to support Australian made we are full of **** in reality. We love that cheap child/slave labour sweat shop produced consumer goods and can't get enough.

The last 30 years up until the pandemic have proved just how full of **** we are in that respect.

 

[SirRumpole]

I remember the phrase now "economic rationalism" could not access any media of the time without hearing it.


With the tariffs isn't that just globalisation of goods that we all have been completely addicted to and the eager beneficiaries of ever since?

TBH not many Aussies when it comes down to it support Australian made if they have a choice of saving $2. Publicly we love to pretend to support Australian made we are full of **** in reality. We love that cheap child/slave labour sweat shop produced consumer goods and can't get enough.

The last 30 years up until the pandemic have proved just how full of **** we are in that respect.

Well, there are trade offs everywhere aren't there ?

Yes we get cheap goods, but there is also no choice because local manufacturers are no longer there and cheap often means shoddy.

The US and Japanese car industries are in the position they are now because competition was pretty much crushed in the early days of those industries until they got to a point where they could survive by themselves. Keeping the weeds out of the garden so to speak.

Maybe a sensible tariff policy would include the difference in wages between the other country and us. Imports from cheap labour countries would attract a higher tariff. That might encourage cheap labour countries to pay people more and reduce the amount of slavery in the world.

 

[3 hound]

Well, there are trade offs everywhere aren't there ?

Yes we get cheap goods, but there is also no choice because local manufacturers are no longer there and cheap often means shoddy.

The US and Japanese car industries are in the position they are now because competition was pretty much crushed in the early days of those industries until they got to a point where they could survive by themselves. Keeping the weeds out of the garden so to speak.

Maybe a sensible tariff policy would include the difference in wages between the other country and us. Imports from cheap labour countries would attract a higher tariff. That might encourage cheap labour countries to pay people more and reduce the amount of slavery in the world.

We, me you and everyone else in the west have clearly spoken with our wallets. Feel free to rationalise it in your own mind any way you need to but the data is in. Our free choice purchasing patterns are beyond doubt of where our true values are.

We like cheap consumer goods and we will go into all kinds of personal debt to keep getting more and more of them without any self discipline that isn't imposed on us by external forces... Australian made be dammed.

 

[sptrawler]

We, me you and everyone else in the west have clearly spoken with our wallets. Feel free to rationalise it in your own mind any way you need to but the data is in. Our free choice purchasing patterns are beyond doubt of where our true values are.

We like cheap consumer goods and we will go into all kinds of personal debt to keep getting more and more of them without any self discipline that isn't imposed on us by external forces... Australian made be dammed.

It is quite interesting that Albo wants to bring back manufacturing, I wonder if Keating will get an interview about it, that would be quite interesting.
Keatings rationale was sound as is most of Labors ideas, it's just the outcomes that he was after were a bit hit and miss IMO.
Floating the dollar, took our dollar from about U.S $1.25 to close to 50c, which made a lot of our goods cheaper and imported goods dearer.
But rather than invest in improving productivity a lot of Australian manufacturers, just relocated their manufacturing to cheap labour countries. This had two benefits one it was a hell of a lot cheaper to manufacture there and as tariffs were coming down the profit margin increased more.
There was no benefit in manufacturing here, so they didn't and globalisation took over. Take Lynas & Redflow for recent examples.
Medicare, pre medicare people weren't dying in the streets, the hospitals were funded by the States and consolidated revenue, most had private health insurance because it was cheap, those who didn't were treated and the Govt picked up the tab. Post medicare, as with everything that is perceived to be free, it became a day out to go and see the doctor, since then every Govt has tried to reign in the cost blow outs, similar problems are happening with NDIS, a great idea that is open to exploitation.
Superannuation, when the 1987 stock market crash happened Australian Banks nearly went belly up, because Australians had very little savings the banks borrowed heavily from overseas, Keating introduced super, which basically forced people to take some of their pay as savings that couldn't be accessed, but reduced our dependence on overseas loans to fund everything.
At the time these ideas solved the unemployment and inflation problems, but it just kicked the can down the road, where we are now. Becoming more and more a service economy, while the services get dearer and dearer and we fund it with revenue from digging up raw materials. Very much like the South American banana republics. that Keating said he was going to stop us becoming, fortunately we have a small population.

Cars, trains and ships: Albanese pledges $15bn fund for Australian manufacturing jobs

With number of workers in the sector at an all-time low, Labor leader says pandemic has shown the country must return to its sovereign capabilities

www.theguardian.com

 

[3 hound]

It is quite interesting that Albo wants to bring back manufacturing, I wonder if Keating will get an interview about it, that would be quite interesting.
Keatings rationale was sound as is most of Labors ideas, it's just the outcomes that he was after were a bit hit and miss IMO.
Floating the dollar, took our dollar from about U.S $1.25 to close to 50c, which made a lot of our goods cheaper and imported goods dearer.
But rather than invest in improving productivity a lot of Australian manufacturers, just relocated their manufacturing to cheap labour countries. This had two benefits one it was a hell of a lot cheaper to manufacture there and as tariffs were coming down the profit margin increased more.
There was no benefit in manufacturing here, so they didn't and globalisation took over. Take Lynas & Redflow for recent examples.
Medicare, pre medicare people weren't dying in the streets, the hospitals were funded by the States and consolidated revenue, most had private health insurance because it was cheap, those who didn't were treated and the Govt picked up the tab. Post medicare, as with everything that is perceived to be free, it became a day out to go and see the doctor, since then every Govt has tried to reign in the cost blow outs, similar problems are happening with NDIS, a great idea that is open to exploitation.
Superannuation, when the 1987 stock market crash happened Australian Banks nearly went belly up, because Australians had very little savings the banks borrowed heavily from overseas, Keating introduced super, which basically forced people to take some of their pay as savings that couldn't be accessed, but reduced our dependence on overseas loans to fund everything.
At the time these ideas solved the unemployment and inflation problems, but it just kicked the can down the road, where we are now. Becoming more and more a service economy, while the services get dearer and dearer and we fund it with revenue from digging up raw materials. Very much like the South American banana republics. that Keating said he was going to stop us becoming, fortunately we have a small population.

Cars, trains and ships: Albanese pledges $15bn fund for Australian manufacturing jobs

With number of workers in the sector at an all-time low, Labor leader says pandemic has shown the country must return to its sovereign capabilities

www.theguardian.com

Interesting views, thanks.

 

[PZ99]

The recession we had to have ?

18% interest rates ?

Cutting tariff protection causing the death of manufacturing ?

I'm sure there are some good things too, but the above are what I remember.

Yep... had to live though all that... which is why I didn't go all the way with PJK...

 

[Macquack]

The recession we had to have ?

18% interest rates ?

Cutting tariff protection causing the death of manufacturing ?

I'm sure there are some good things too, but the above are what I remember.

And the cheapest real estate we ever had.

Ah, the good old days.

 

[sptrawler]

And the cheapest real estate we ever had.

Ah, the good old days.

You should come to Perth, still buy a house within 10klm of the CBD for less than $400k, sparkies in the mines on $160k, truck drivers $140k, ah its not all bad.
Apparently Sydney is the second dearest place in the World and people are still bidding them up, life's full of choices.

 

[PZ99]

You should come to Perth, still buy a house within 10klm of the CBD for less than $400k, sparkies in the mines on $160k, truck drivers $140k, ah its not all bad.
Apparently Sydney is the second dearest place in the World and people are still bidding them up, life's full of choices.

Parts of Sydney are starting to crash already. It does feel like a déjà vu of Keating era is on.

 

[IFocus]

Interest rates were raised world wide, Paul Vocker leading the charge all to kill inflation which worked but there were casualties.

It was a time when leaders took action unlike now running up unlimited debt and printing money the consequences still to play out.

Economic rationalism came primary from Thatcher and Regan a pox on their houses.

 

[Knobby22]

You should come to Perth, still buy a house within 10klm of the CBD for less than $400k, sparkies in the mines on $160k, truck drivers $140k, ah its not all bad.
Apparently Sydney is the second dearest place in the World and people are still bidding them up, life's full of choices.

I suggested to my 18 year old son to think about getting out of Melbourne and do mining. they even help you do a Uni degree while you are working for them.

Its hard though to enter the wide world on your own with local family , friends when you are that young.

 

[sptrawler]

I suggested to my 18 year old son to think about getting out of Melbourne and do mining. they even help you do a Uni degree while you are working for them.

Its hard though to enter the wide world on your own with local family , friends when you are that young.

Most of the larger mining companies are like that, one of my ex workmates who did an electrical apprenticeship did a cadetship, ended up a CEO of a major company, another became a CFO after doing a company sponsored degree in accounting.
So opportunities are always there, the thing is they don't come looking for the person, the person has to go out there and find them.
My oldest son was on big money out the bush, has finally moved after 20 years and realised it is the best thing ever, people like to stay in their comfort zone and end up treading water.
My son in law worked as a recruitment worker, the company went broke, he started his own company and now is doing unbelievably well.

 

[sptrawler]

I suggested to my 18 year old son to think about getting out of Melbourne and do mining. they even help you do a Uni degree while you are working for them.

Its hard though to enter the wide world on your own with local family , friends when you are that young.

Yes IMO unless you have an unusual talent or gift, you have to go hard and go early, if not you just become another hamster on the treadmill of life bitching about your lot.
At 18 he has his whole life ahead of him, as you say he could go bush, earn good dollars and pick up a cheap first property to negative gear.
I helped the oldest get into his first property, an old duplex in Perth, when he was in the fourth year of his apprenticeship.
He sold it recently to help fund a large acreage down South, he only lived in the duplex for two years, negative geared it the rest.

 

[PZ99]

I suggested to my 18 year old son to think about getting out of Melbourne and do mining. they even help you do a Uni degree while you are working for them.

Its hard though to enter the wide world on your own with local family , friends when you are that young.

There's good money in construction in Melb and all the ancillary jobs that come with it.
Traffic Management Workers, pilot vehicle drivers etc... all good money from what I've heard.

 

[sptrawler]

There's good money in construction in Melb and all the ancillary jobs that come with it.
Traffic Management Workers, pilot vehicle drivers etc... all good money from what I've heard.

Good point PZ, but I would think the possibility of advancement and climbing the income ladder would be limited, then before you know it you are caught in the wage slave trap and too scared to lose the income.
In the semi skilled stuff, it is hard to beat the mines IMO.
A really close friend, his son did an apprenticeship as a cabinet maker, hated it so when he had finished he went as a t.a for a construction company. They offered him an adult apprenticeship as a welder, which he did, then he started work for a global crane company, now he flies around the world as a hydraulics trouble shooter for them on mega bucks. You never know where things will lead, if you give it a go. Lol

 

[Eager]

You should come to Perth, still buy a house within 10klm of the CBD for less than $400k, sparkies in the mines on $160k, truck drivers $140k, ah its not all bad.

The suicide rate is HUGE.

Should mines have psychologists on-site to support FIFOs' mental health?

Peter Miller lost his FIFO son Rhys to suicide. He wants mines to do more to support their workers' mental health, and supports calls for on-site psychologists.

www.abc.net.au

 

[sptrawler]

The suicide rate is HUGE.

Should mines have psychologists on-site to support FIFOs' mental health?

Peter Miller lost his FIFO son Rhys to suicide. He wants mines to do more to support their workers' mental health, and supports calls for on-site psychologists.

www.abc.net.au

What, it's less than mortgage stress related deaths, from Eastern States wage slaves?
Obviously people aren't as stressed about the cost of housing, as are as stressed about working away.
Hopefully a war doesn't break out, then lots have to work away from home.
Maybe fifo should be stopped, then all those over East, who fly to the W.A mines, would have to move here, it would probably de stress their lives, going home to their family every day.
FIFO was only introduced, because fringe benefits tax was introduced and the mining companies had to pay tax for providing housing, I smell another brain fart.
But brings the topic back on thread, by chance.LOL