The ScoMo Government

[Humid]

Can you provide a cost benefit analysis that says high speed rail is worth the cost ?

If it is, then I'd certainly support it.

To the people of west oz.....=0

 

[wayneL]

That was exactly my point. You can't do an accurate cost benefit analysis. And even if you could, not everything the government does should be viewed in terms of cost benefit. I could use cost benefit analysis to justify capital punishment, forced sterilisation, all kinds of things we wouldn't generally accept as a society (well I don't mind death penalty) Is there a positive cost benefit analysis on welfare? submarines? tanks? job keeper payments to Harvey Norman? A statue in a park?

As an aside - Sydney Opera house was probably regarded as one of the biggest project management failures of all time. If they knew the true cost at the time it would never have been built. Doubt it will ever pay itself back. But I'd be willing to bet that most people today are glad it was built. I think cost estimates need to be accurate - but they don't always need to show that they 'make money' for the government.

No these things to not have to show they make money for the government at all, but they should show some sort of benefit for society, and perhaps the overall local economy.

I think the Sydney opera House does that in terms of overall economic benefit, because of the positive externalities, if I'm using the right phrase there.

Something like a fast rail service has purely economic implications and possibly some negative externalities.

Therefore it cannot be compared to something like the opera House.

But perhaps there could be some overall economic/social benefits, I don't know really, but I doubt it at this stage.

 

[sptrawler]

In Japan tbe high speed trains dont replace tbe normal trains, they compliment them.
The shinkansen runs between major population towns, the normal speed picks up the smaller towns. It works well, but the population densities are much greater than here, whether it would be sensible here is dubious.
Maybe Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane interconnect, but smaller populations would be dubious IMO and even the above would take years to justify itself on patronage IMO.
Having high speed from Sydney to Newcastle sounds like pork barreling, why not Melbourne to Geelong, Brisbane to sunshine coast or gold coast, Perth to Bunbury etc.

 

[wayneL]

Let me ask this question. What would stop me getting in my car and driving a couple of hours to Bunbury, as opposed to hopping on a fast train even if it was faster?

The answer is the connections at the other end... even getting to the terminus at the Perth end.

How do I get around Bunbury once I alight at the other end?

it would seem to me that are fast train link would be completly contingent upon a comprehensive and *safe public transport system at the other end.

Does that exist, can it exist within the confines of the current paradigm?

I think not.

Therefore, there is not just the cost of the fast link between centres, but also the distribution systems at each end.

That is an additional cost which I do not think the bureaucrats are taking into account in toto.

we do suffer The tyranny of distance in Australia which affect the economics of any such schemes. IMNTCHO

 

[The Triangle]

In Japan tbe high speed trains dont replace tbe normal trains, they compliment them.
The shinkansen runs between major population towns, the normal speed picks up the smaller towns. It works well, but the population densities are much greater than here, whether it would be sensible here is dubious.
Maybe Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane interconnect, but smaller populations would be dubious IMO and even the above would take years to justify itself on patronage IMO.
Having high speed from Sydney to Newcastle sounds like pork barreling, why not Melbourne to Geelong, Brisbane to sunshine coast or gold coast, Perth to Bunbury etc.

Have to start somewhere, I don't really care that much, but would rather infrastructure spending over tanks and handouts. Could build a lot of fire stations and fire trucks, flood barriers, whatever. Government infrastructure projects will never ever make the majority happy, as you get the 'why is this not in my backyard first' crowd. I just think its the best bang for your buck and in 10, 20, 50 years it's still there.

Perth-Bunbury wouldn't work, can't smoke meth on the train.

 

[wayneL]

Have to start somewhere, I don't really care that much, but would rather infrastructure spending over tanks and handouts. Could build a lot of fire stations and fire trucks, flood barriers, whatever. Government infrastructure projects will never ever make the majority happy, as you get the 'why is this not in my backyard first' crowd. I just think its the best bang for your buck and in 10, 20, 50 years it's still there.

Perth-Bunbury wouldn't work, can't smoke meth on the train.

And in one fell swoop you have highlighted the problem of public transport.

 

[Knobby22]

I am pretty sure the Melbourne/Sydney flight route is the second busiest in the world. Surely a fast train route would work rather than building additional runways and terminals in Sydney and Melbourne which is presently occurring.

Maybe there are better infrastructure investments but I can't think of any at present. I can't understand how Europe can install an extensive tram and fast train system yet we still run basically 19th century train route between Melbourne and Sydney that takes over 12 hours. I know as I used it once. May as well be a steam train its so slow.

 

[sptrawler]

Have to start somewhere, I don't really care that much, but would rather infrastructure spending over tanks and handouts. Could build a lot of fire stations and fire trucks, flood barriers, whatever. Government infrastructure projects will never ever make the majority happy, as you get the 'why is this not in my backyard first' crowd. I just think its the best bang for your buck and in 10, 20, 50 years it's still there.

Perth-Bunbury wouldn't work, can't smoke meth on the train.

Agree I just think if you are going to put in high speed train, it needs to be really high speed train and that really needs to service large populations.
, A high speed regional train that stops every 10 to 15 minutes is a waste of time IMO, it needs to be able to replace aircraft, not just speed up an existing country service that can be done by improving rolling stock.
If you are going to introduce nation building infrastructure, do it once do it right.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Let me ask this question. What would stop me getting in my car and driving a couple of hours to Bunbury, as opposed to hopping on a fast train even if it was faster?

The answer is the connections at the other end... even getting to the terminus at the Perth end.

How do I get around Bunbury once I alight at the other end?

it would seem to me that are fast train link would be completly contingent upon a comprehensive and *safe public transport system at the other end.

Does that exist, can it exist within the confines of the current paradigm?

I think not.

Therefore, there is not just the cost of the fast link between centres, but also the distribution systems at each end.

That is an additional cost which I do not think the bureaucrats are taking into account in toto.

we do suffer The tyranny of distance in Australia which affect the economics of any such schemes. IMNTCHO

I must admit I would prefer atm that money was spent on weapons and self defence.

Rather than high powered trains which would only allow the bogans and rich of Sydney and Melbourne to mate and play football or soccer with each other. There is sufficient strife in the world as there is without the different tribes and religions from those cities having a go at each other more easily.

Building up the ADF to be a well equipped fighting force in the region would be preferable to me.

Remember that if an enemy does come in and take over, the first thing they will do a la Comrade Pol Pot is empty Sydney and Melbourne. This would of course be facilitated by a fast train. So in a way building a fast train would be aiding the enemy.

As much as that would not greatly affect me here in NQ, I do have friends and relations in those cities who I love and admire, and would hate to see them come to harm.

I would prefer to see mayhem and mischief confined to the boarding areas at Mascot and Tullamarine airports, as it is presently, rather than on a train subsidised by my taxes.

gg

 

[Humid]

Labor vote and you'll get a high speed train from Sydney to Melbourne. Yes, all the contracts will be awarded to corrupt bikie/union associates of labor but at least we'll get something useful. Vote for libs and we'll end up with tanks? This is complete corruption. We do not need tanks. Who are we defending ourselves from? They'll probably be used to kill our own citizens before killing any foreign army.

Amazing that people still support a republic with these degenerates running our government. Terrible idea... let's add even more of these pigs... I'd gladly replace all of them with Will and Kate. And Andrew would fit right in with the Hillsong liberals and nationals.

Can you think of any ex Lib ministers lobbying for arms makers?

 

[mullokintyre]

The only way Scomo will support a VFT is if it is run by someone from Hillsong.
Morrison has gone against one of the liberals revered elders, ex Pm Howard in his backing of a candidate for the seat of Dobell.

Scott Morrison and former prime minister John Howard have endorsed different candidates for the vital marginal seat of Dobell, as members of the NSW Liberal Party express their concern about the threat of ongoing preselection delays to their ability to retain government.
With no candidates selected in 10 critical NSW seats, Liberal senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells offered a stark warning, saying the party’s ability to contest the next election was in jeopardy unless immediate action was taken to select candidates.
A rare, glowing endorsement written by Mr Howard for St Vincent’s Hospital cardiologist Michael Feneley labels him an “outstanding person” and an “ideal candidate”.
Penned to NSW state executive director Chris Stone in August, Mr Howard said: “I strong support Professor Michael Feneley’s bid to receive Liberal Party endorsement.

“The Liberal Party is in need of candidates who have achieved esteem and success in the real world. Professor Feneley certainly falls into this category”.

The endorsement comes despite the Prime Minister’s backing for businesswomen and Pentecostal preacher Jemima Gleeson. Held by Labor’s Emma McBride on a razor-thin 1.5 per cent margin, Dobell is one of several marginal seats likely to prove critical to the Coalition’s chances of retaining government at the next election.

Fernely would be a better choice, even if it is to only enable someone to answer in the affirmative when one poses the question " Is there a Doctor in the House?".
Mick

Mick

 

[SirRumpole]

The only way Scomo will support a VFT is if it is run by someone from Hillsong.
Morrison has gone against one of the liberals revered elders, ex Pm Howard in his backing of a candidate for the seat of Dobell.


Fernely would be a better choice, even if it is to only enable someone to answer in the affirmative when one poses the question " Is there a Doctor in the House?".
Mick

Mick

Why the Libs are in trouble.. Howard is right of course, but merit will lose out to the feminist and old mates vote.

Why would you vote for these idiots ?

 

[Logique2]

Quite. There'll be a record vote for small parties eg Lib Dems and indeps.
Which will play into Labor's hands.

Mainstream voters hope for a Michael Feneley, but they end up with a Trent Zimmerman or Dave Sharma.

As for very fast trains, they seem to become important on a 4 year cycle..

 

[wayneL]

Why the Libs are in trouble.. Howard is right of course, but merit will lose out to the feminist and old mates vote.

Why would you vote for these idiots ?

One shouldn't vote for idiots at all, and by rights that should count out both the LNP and Lab/Green axis.

But of course most people will continue to vote for one lot of idiots for the other.

Our only hope as a nation is for some of the minors to have a strong showing, at least in the Senate.

Otherwise, I feel we are absolutely farked as a liberal democracy.

 

[Knobby22]

One shouldn't vote for idiots at all, and by rights that should count out both the LNP and Lab/Green axis.

But of course most people will continue to vote for one lot of idiots for the other.

Our only hope as a nation is for some of the minors to have a strong showing, at least in the Senate.

Otherwise, I feel we are absolutely farked as a liberal democracy.

If the Independents controlling the country are the Greens and the United Australia Party, then that will be worse.

 

[wayneL]

If the Independents controlling the country are the Greens and the United Australia Party, then that will be worse.

If you notice I did include the Greens in my cabal of idiots.

If your point is that you do not like the UAP or Greens, that is your opinion which you are entitled to. But they are not the only viable minor parties.

As for me, I have excluded from consideration the LNP, Greens, and Labor (probably forever)

I do have a favoured minor at the moment, but waiting till we get closer to the election. Criteria will be likely chance of success and reasonably close to my personal and reasonable ideology.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

One shouldn't vote for idiots at all, and by rights that should count out both the LNP and Lab/Green axis.

But of course most people will continue to vote for one lot of idiots for the other.

Our only hope as a nation is for some of the minors to have a strong showing, at least in the Senate.

Otherwise, I feel we are absolutely farked as a liberal democracy.

It is also every Australian's right to spoil their vote.

Voting for none of the useless idiots.

gg

 

[wayneL]

It is also every Australian's right to spoil their vote.

Voting for none of the useless idiots.

gg

True.

But that does take away one small opportunity to check the current totalitarian @ssholes.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

True.

But that does take away one small opportunity to check the current totalitarian @ssholes.

A useless idiot is as bad as a useful idiot.

If more people spoiled their votes in Australia people might actually start to give a rats.

e.g. "You got elected on 35% of the votes = You do not have a mandate.

So if you don't show effort in fixing crime, or corruption e.g., then go, and if you don't go ...."

gg

 

[Logique2]

Not even a member of the party, just making a point.
Apparently in ScoMo world, someone so well credentialled couldn't posssible stack up against a Pentecostal preacher as candidate for Dobell:

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Feneley
"[Michael]Feneley has been the Director of Cardiology at St Vincent's Hospital, Sydney, since 1993...On 11 June 2012, Feneley was named a Member of the Order of Australia for "service to medicine in the field of cardiology as a clinician, researcher and educator, through contributions to professional organisations, and to the community."[1].."

"..He served as president of the Art Gallery Society of New South Wales Council, the Art Gallery of New South Wales membership organisation, from 2006 to 2010. Prior to this he served as vice-president from 2005 to 2006 and has been a member since 2002.
He has also served as Chair of the East Coast Theatre Company for several years..."