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Australian Federal Election - 2019

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Oh forgot another one

The surplus that Morrison has made (next year this year....clear?) gone already......tick

$600 bil double again in three years anyone.....tick

Thanks Queensland.....that line will be very useful for the next three years.
 
IFocus said:
So tax cuts promised in July not happening...tick

Environment minister dropped......tick

Review into pensions and Superannuation.......tick, bend over SP your heroes are going to shaft you.

$40 bil black hole funding about to get filled by cuts to seniors who would have guessed.......thanks Queensland.
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At least they will have rhyme and reason, I'm not rich enough to vote for your mob.lol
 
rederob said:
So it's ok for bigots and the poorly educated to get expert advice but not for those better educated and with a functional value system?

Half the reason we are where we are is because the "experts" are regularly consulted and equally regularly ignored.
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Education of itself is a good thing. The problem is when it leads to hubris and that does seem to occur in some professions more than others. Under that situation no amount of advice from actual experts serves any purpose since it will be either dismissed as wrong or simply ignored.

A classic example of current relevance is the energy situation. Of all who've commented over the past quarter century of "reform" one thing stands out. Focusing purely on the economic aspects, so ignoring technical and environmental matters, the one group who got it completely wrong was the economists. Unions, operators, tradesmen, engineers, people writing editorials in newspapers, environmentalists and so on were all at least somewhat closer to the truth on the economic aspects of what was being done than the economists were.

Half the value in education is knowing what you don't know and accepting that as being so.

Plenty of people could and did spot that the economic crowd and their political supporters were embedding huge inefficiencies and making wrong assumptions about things they knew little about but those calls fell on deaf ears. Now the community's left with a cost exceeding $1 billion a month not because of education or expertise but because of hubris.

Assuming they're not lacking in intelligence those with a lesser education have an advantage in that they're generally well aware that they don't know about certain things. They're also usually quick to spot ideology from practical information. :2twocents
 
IFocus said:
bend over SP your heroes are going to shaft you.
.
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Humid, another rusted on Labor voter, said exactly the same thing before the election. The only difference, it was going to be Bill that was going to do it to me.
This is the whole problem with you guys, as long as you are screwing the middle class, your happy. Well I certainly hope you maintain that belief, because Labor will never get in, while you do.:xyxthumbs
You must be pleased, your investment properties, are out of the spotlight now.:roflmao:
 
Smurf1976 said:
Education of itself is a good thing. The problem is when it leads to hubris and that does seem to occur in some professions more than others. Under that situation no amount of advice from actual experts serves any purpose since it will be either dismissed as wrong or simply ignored.

A classic example of current relevance is the energy situation. Of all who've commented over the past quarter century of "reform" one thing stands out. Focusing purely on the economic aspects, so ignoring technical and environmental matters, the one group who got it completely wrong was the economists. Unions, operators, tradesmen, engineers, people writing editorials in newspapers, environmentalists and so on were all at least somewhat closer to the truth on the economic aspects of what was being done than the economists were.

Half the value in education is knowing what you don't know and accepting that as being so.

Plenty of people could and did spot that the economic crowd and their political supporters were embedding huge inefficiencies and making wrong assumptions about things they knew little about but those calls fell on deaf ears. Now the community's left with a cost exceeding $1 billion a month not because of education or expertise but because of hubris.

Assuming they're not lacking in intelligence those with a lesser education have an advantage in that they're generally well aware that they don't know about certain things. They're also usually quick to spot ideology from practical information. :2twocents
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I don't find that a compelling argument.
The NEM came about 20 years ago under Howard so power monopolies could be broken down and a "competitive market" result.
The NEM certainly needs some tweaking, but overall the "rules" are not too bad. You have pointed out issues which are very technical but, as I see it, the outcome will be that poor performers fall by the wayside.
The biggest problem with the NEM is its dominance by federal Energy Ministers who have been largely incompetent.
I am on the NEM's mailing list and market players are not backward presenting their ideas and explaining why things go wrong, and what needs to be done to fix things. The fixing bit keeps getting thrown into the too hard basket.
Unfortunately the feds pandered to the easy fixed poles and wires issue, gold plating them, instead of paying attention to how the electrons got there in the first place. If you want to know why we have amongst the highest electricity prices in the world, look out the window.
Shocking waste :(.
 
rederob said:
I don't find that a compelling argument.
The NEM came about 20 years ago under Howard so power monopolies could be broken down and a "competitive market" result.
The NEM certainly needs some tweaking, but overall the "rules" are not too bad. You have pointed out issues which are very technical but, as I see it, the outcome will be that poor performers fall by the wayside.
The biggest problem with the NEM is its dominance by federal Energy Ministers who have been largely incompetent.
I am on the NEM's mailing list and market players are not backward presenting their ideas and explaining why things go wrong, and what needs to be done to fix things. The fixing bit keeps getting thrown into the too hard basket.
Unfortunately the feds pandered to the easy fixed poles and wires issue, gold plating them, instead of paying attention to how the electrons got there in the first place. If you want to know why we have amongst the highest electricity prices in the world, look out the window.
Shocking waste :(.
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Yeah, but when Elco's were owned by the States there was competition between the States to keep power prices low, and when they owned distribution and retailing they could cross subsidise to keep prices stable.

Of course, the electricity market was never going to stay the same, rooftop solar saw to that, but gold plating as you pointed out is a significant cause of price increases, and would not have happened if poles and wires were still in government hands.
 
IFocus said:
So tax cuts promised in July not happening...tick

Environment minister dropped......tick

Review into pensions and Superannuation.......tick, bend over SP your heroes are going to shaft you.

$40 bil black hole funding about to get filled by cuts to seniors who would have guessed.......thanks Queensland.
Click to expand...
Well, you can't blame me because I didn't vote for them (or any of the Komrades), but all I have to say is....

QUEENSLANDER!

NB: WA looks pretty blue too @IFocus ;)
 
rederob said:
I don't find that a compelling argument.
The NEM came about 20 years ago under Howard so power monopolies could be broken down and a "competitive market" result.
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The economists said that a competitive market would be cheaper.

Those on the other side pointed out that numerous inefficiencies were being embedded into everything from supplying demineralised water and auxiliary fuels through to networks and metering and that the total cost of all that was bigger than any likely saving from competition.

End result is prices went up as those in the second group expected they would.

My point there is not about the energy industry, that's just an example, but that there's no point seeking expert advice if it's just going to be dismissed because it doesn't suit whatever ideas someone else is determined to go ahead with anyway.

There are many things like that. Eg it would be pretty much pointless to obtain expert advice on anything relating to border security, immigration or CO2 emissions since politicians are simply too rusted on to their own ideas. At best they'll just keep bringing in more experts until they find one who agrees.

The Liberals getting **** to write reports in a completely different industry that worked backward from the conclusion is another one. Saw that a long time ago - start with the conclusion, include in the report anything that's even remotely close to supporting it and simply omit anything that isn't. Then collect the consultancy fee. :2twocents
 
Smurf1976 said:
The economists said that a competitive market would be cheaper.
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It would be and should be, but power generation is not the whole story.
Below is what gold-plating poles and wires looks like:
EnergyPrices.gif

The other side if this untold story is that States were competing with one another to attract industry, and energy prices were the carrot on their many sticks. This "market" inefficiency was removed by the NEM.
I am not an apologist for the NEM, but if you really want to see what's wrong with it, revisit last year's COAG Energy Council meeting and it gets a lot clearer.
 
wayneL said:
Well, you can't blame me because I didn't vote for them (or any of the Komrades), but all I have to say is....

QUEENSLANDER!

NB: WA looks pretty blue too @IFocus ;)
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Yep Labor took a flogging in WA as well but reading SP's comments Labor was attacking the middle class pretty well sums it up....... I think the Coalition actually will as they don't have the money.
 
HelloU said:
@Smurf1976

don't they make their water? (vap it)
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Where the issue arose was with multiple plants in fairly close proximity who were sharing workshop facilities, equipment, spares and all sorts of other things.

Eg Plant A has sufficient demin water production on site for rouinte operations but the practice for a restart following a major outage was to truck more in from plant B just down the road which had much greater capacity. Or if that failed then could have got it from plant C not far away so there was a backup plan for everyone yes.

Then plant B and plant D were both depending on plant C for their auxiliary fuel supplies.

They were all sharing workshops and so on with the only one able to do some critical works on plant D being in-house at plant E.

Duplicating all that cost a fortune and some of it never was really sorted - to this day there's work that goes overseas.

My point there has nothing to do with the power industry though, I've only used that example since it's one I know about but my point is about there being no point calling upon expert advice if you're not going to listen to it.

When I got an arborist to check the trees on my property I did so because I wanted to know if they're safe or not. I didn't tell them I wanted them to be safe or unsafe, I said I wanted to know the facts and paid them to tell me.

Which brings up another point that's of some relevance to the way politicians and those close to them think and that's about a concept known as "self-regulation". That's another one where there's a divide between the working class and the upper class (for want of better terms).

Those at the coal face will admit that it's not a great system since money talks and if you want a certain outcome then just find someone who'll do it. Those at the other end of the scale pretend with a perfect poker face that this isn't how things work and it's all above board and so on. As if...... :roflmao:
 
IFocus said:
Yep Labor took a flogging in WA as well but reading SP's comments Labor was attacking the middle class pretty well sums it up....... I think the Coalition actually will as they don't have the money.
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If everyone on the bus needs to pay an extra $1 per trip to keep the service running then fair enough we'l all pay another $.

Where Labor went wrong was singling out one passenger who the driver didn't really like and demanding they pay an extra $50 or be thrown off the bus and left in the middle of nowhere.

That's schoolyard bully tactics and people will vote for someone they don't necessarily like (ScoMo) but who seems reasonable as such over someone they don't trust (Shorten). :2twocents
 
IFocus said:
Oh forgot another one

The surplus that Morrison has made (next year this year....clear?) gone already......tick

$600 bil double again in three years anyone.....tick

Thanks Queensland.....that line will be very useful for the next three years.
Click to expand...

Surplus was highly unlikely to happen under ALP or Coalition's watch. They've all been claiming future surpluses for the last 5 years.

The tax cuts for next year will happen, they will be late but they will happen.
 
Junior said:
Surplus was highly unlikely to happen under ALP or Coalition's watch. They've all been claiming future surpluses for the last 5 years.

The tax cuts for next year will happen, they will be late but they will happen.
Click to expand...

Assuming they get through the Senate, they will happen and be back dated

The forecast surplus had better be there or some of the gloss will tarnish
 
Smurf1976 said:
Where the issue arose was with multiple plants in fairly close proximity who were sharing workshop facilities, equipment, spares and all sorts of other things.

Eg Plant A has sufficient demin water production on site for rouinte operations but the practice for a restart following a major outage was to truck more in from plant B just down the road which had much greater capacity. Or if that failed then could have got it from plant C not far away so there was a backup plan for everyone yes.

Then plant B and plant D were both depending on plant C for their auxiliary fuel supplies.

They were all sharing workshops and so on with the only one able to do some critical works on plant D being in-house at plant E.

Duplicating all that cost a fortune and some of it never was really sorted - to this day there's work that goes overseas.

My point there has nothing to do with the power industry though, I've only used that example since it's one I know about but my point is about there being no point calling upon expert advice if you're not going to listen to it.

When I got an arborist to check the trees on my property I did so because I wanted to know if they're safe or not. I didn't tell them I wanted them to be safe or unsafe, I said I wanted to know the facts and paid them to tell me.

Which brings up another point that's of some relevance to the way politicians and those close to them think and that's about a concept known as "self-regulation". That's another one where there's a divide between the working class and the upper class (for want of better terms).

Those at the coal face will admit that it's not a great system since money talks and if you want a certain outcome then just find someone who'll do it. Those at the other end of the scale pretend with a perfect poker face that this isn't how things work and it's all above board and so on. As if...... :roflmao:
Click to expand...
off topic
(do want to get a reputation for derails)

thx, that puts my mind at ease re water but slapped my face about the economy of effort thing and experience exchange between sites (that was a timely reminder that i needed re big picture)

when everyone else going to big red is in a cruiser and carrying various spares, then u had better hope your dmax does not break down.
 
Junior said:
Surplus was highly unlikely to happen under ALP or Coalition's watch. They've all been claiming future surpluses for the last 5 years.

The tax cuts for next year will happen, they will be late but they will happen.
Click to expand...

Labor would have actually more wiggle room than the Coalitions promise based on over optimistically rosy Goldilocks out look rather than revenue.

But also take your point every chance Labor would have missed it as well as the economy dives and a obstructionist Senate.

We will have to wait to see where the Coalition will get funding from my guess it will be from seniors some how (biggest cost in welfare) the current rate of increase is unsustainable.

Franking credits alone increase from currently $6 bill upwards to $9 to $11 bil.
 
the old peeps bill is growing slowly ..... NDIS is the burner
No idea where all the NDIS money came from years ago but that is the current growth industry ....

"The biggest driver of growth in both welfare expenses and overall government payments is the National Disability Insurance Scheme (NDIS).... expenditure on disability services was $4.7 billion in 2015–16 but is expected to rise to $24.0 billion in 2019–20 when the NDIS roll-out is completed ....... The Parliamentary Budget Office (PBO) estimates that real annual growth in expenditure on the NDIS will be 43.6 per cent between 2014–15 and 2025–26, rising from almost zero to 1.1 per cent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) ". (govnt quote)
 
So far as funding people in retirement is concerned, surely the sensible approach is to encourage people to fund themselves so long as it ends up being less of a drain on taxpayer funds than the pension.

If persuading people to be self-funded means giving them access to the Tax Free Threshold on their dividends and whatever the proper name is for the card that gets them concessions on things like public transport etc, well then that would seem to be an outright bargain compared to having them on the Age Pension.

Same with the unemployed. If someone's self-funded but still has access to whatever support to find a job and some concessions on bus fares or whatever well then that's a lot cheaper than paying them Newstart.:2twocents
 
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