Do you have solar panels?

Hi all,

I have built a new house and am looking to get solar panels installed on the roof. Have done some research on companies and their products, but would be interested in others experiences and opinions.

Have you, or would you consider getting them installed?

Have you used a company, and would recommend them, or vice versa?
How many kW should your system produce for it to be viable?
Most companies panels are made in China, but some have a 25 year manufacturers warranty, so the product seems to be of a reliable quality.

The government subsidies are due to reduce as of July 1st, so now may be a good time to make steps in this direction.

Any input would be appreciated.

springhill said:

Have you, or would you consider getting them installed?

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Hi springhill, I ran the numbers for my house and it just isn't worth getting it installed for us. I have 8 inch thick insulation batts in the roof space and they work pretty well. My stove and hot water are gas so it makes my energy costs very low. My last electric bill was $144 for the quarter and the gas bill was $99 for the quarter. So for a $1,000 a year for all my energy costs it just isn't worth it. It all sounds good with the rebates and stuff but when you really get some quotes happening you are still out of pocket by many thousands of $$$. Plus we could sell up in a couple of years and could end up making a substantial loss. Our environmental damage is minimal, have not used the air con yet this summer and only used the heater (which is gas) about half a dozen times in winter so our output in minimal, cheers.

springhill said:

Hi all,

I have built a new house and am looking to get solar panels installed on the roof. Have done some research on companies and their products, but would be interested in others experiences and opinions.

Have you, or would you consider getting them installed?

Have you used a company, and would recommend them, or vice versa?
How many kW should your system produce for it to be viable?
Most companies panels are made in China, but some have a 25 year manufacturers warranty, so the product seems to be of a reliable quality.

The government subsidies are due to reduce as of July 1st, so now may be a good time to make steps in this direction.

Any input would be appreciated.

Click to expand...

Hi !

Were in Queensland, we have somewhere in the vicinity of 160 PV solar panels, covering an area that is 30m x 12m.

- This produces 30kw of electricity, which is realistically as much as you can do (30kw is 3-phase power) and if you produce more then 30kw you get a commercial feed in rate.

-Cost was roughly 150,000

-Annual returns are in the vicinity of 25,000 - 30,000 the variation is dependent upon wheather. Yes, we are getting 20% returns, guaranteed at that rate, by both the government and our contracted energy company, and of course the manufacturers warranty, 20% .. every year ... for 25 years. Which is better then a managed fund

-Our rate of of input to the grid is contracted for a long period of time.

-Indeed, we have a manufactures warranty that covers output efficiency for 25 years.

-In queensland we are paid on a 'net' feed in tariff, ie, only get paid on any production that is not consumed. This may be different in SA, you may have a gross feed in tariff. in which case you are paid for however much the system produces, regardless of how much you use.

- we have had it verified by the insurance company that it is protected under home and contents insurance (in our case)

- The property this is installed upon is 15 acres large, and has 2 electrical metres, 1 for the house and surrounds and 1 for a shed, obviously because of the net feed in tariff, we bypassed the house and went through the shed, which only has 3 halogen lights and an electric door, thereby we are getting paid for 99% of what it produces. Effectively meaning we are getting paid the net tariff, but on a gross tariff scale

What can kill it as an investment ?

- if you dont optimize it .. as we have done
- if you dont do considerable research
- high levels of inflation
- technologic innovoation that makes the technology redundant (which we figure even if they did, would be 10yrs plus away from implementation.

springhill said:

Hi all,

I have built a new house and am looking to get solar panels installed on the roof. Have done some research on companies and their products, but would be interested in others experiences and opinions.

Have you, or would you consider getting them installed?

Have you used a company, and would recommend them, or vice versa?
How many kW should your system produce for it to be viable?
Most companies panels are made in China, but some have a 25 year manufacturers warranty, so the product seems to be of a reliable quality.

The government subsidies are due to reduce as of July 1st, so now may be a good time to make steps in this direction.

Any input would be appreciated.

Click to expand...

Hi
If your hotwater system is electric, and installed by the standards, then it will have a cold water mixer to prevent children being burnt at various parts of the house.
If this is so, ensure your water is only being heated slightly over the final temperature.
Otherwise you are using excess energy heating up the water that is being cooled again.

Our neighbours have solarhotwater and a 5 panel grid connect and their bill is about $50
less than our. Our yearly bill $1200. but have gas hotplate.

There is a local who has just installed a large system on a house . I will get particulars.
Cheers

Springhill, you should read the solar panels buying guide in Choice magazine Oct 2010.

As Bill M says it would take many years to break even, so installing the average 1.5 kw system as a cost saving device is not on. The other alternative is if you are keen on saving the planet in the same way as greenies buy Prius cars.

Then there is a third reason My reason...I like gadgets, and have surrounded myself with all sorts of electronic products in which my interest soon wanes. However I am thoroughly satisfied with the solar system's performance. In the middle of a sunny day it does actually churn out 1.5 kw.

If you decide to go ahead I would suggest you go with a well known company like Origin. They use top products made by Sharp, and the installation was first class.

joea said:

Hi
If your hotwater system is electric, and installed by the standards, then it will have a cold water mixer to prevent children being burnt at various parts of the house.
If this is so, ensure your water is only being heated slightly over the final temperature.
Otherwise you are using excess energy heating up the water that is being cooled again.

Our neighbours have solarhotwater and a 5 panel grid connect and their bill is about $50
less than our. Our yearly bill $1200. but have gas hotplate.

There is a local who has just installed a large system on a house . I will get particulars.
Cheers

Click to expand...

Unless you have a huge tank every time you use hot water cold will be replacing it in the tank so you will run out quick with multiple showers.

Happy to help anyone with solar but need some info first:

1. What state are you located in?

2. Are you on the main electricity grid?

3. Do you have a roof area facing somewhere near north (doesn't have to be exactly North, anywhere between East and West will be good enough) that the panels could be installed on?

4. Anything unusual? For example a steep roof pitch (eg an A-frame house), flat roof or multi-story construction?

5. What is the roof made of? Tiles? Metal? Something else?

6. Is there any shade on the roof? For example, trees, surrounding tall buildings, power lines, TV antennas?

Whether or not it's financially viable really depends on your location (state) an the specifics of the property to a very large extent. More than happy to help you work it out.

Personally, yes I've got solar power on my house and I've also been involved with the installation and design of rather a lot of stand alone (not connected to the grid) small systems for various purposes. I'm a licensed electrician but not formally qualified in designing solar power systems (they are all working fine however...).

My household energy is as follows. These figures are mostly measured but some are estimated.

Wood = 43% (all of which is used for space heating)

Grid electricity = 32% (58% of which is used for space heating, 23% for hot water, 19% of grid electricity + all of the solar electricity is used for everything else)

Solar & ambient heat input to heat pump = 23% (38% of which is as electricity used for non-heating purposes, 62% as hot water)

Oil & LPG = 2% (LPG for cooking and BBQ, petrol for the mower, fuel for the occasionally used heater in the garage)

Those figures are in terms of the energy sources. In terms of final usage (from all sources including solar):

Space heating = 62%
Hot water = 22%
Lighting = 3%
Aquarium = 3%
Refrigeration = 3%
Cooking = 3%
Washing / Drying = 3%
Other = 5%

Figures don't add to 100% due to rounding each to the nearest whole %.

Equipment:

Solar power = 1.36kW panels (8 x 170W) and a 1100W SMA Sunny Boy inverter. Installed 2009.

Hot Water = Siddons Solarstream 327 Litre heat pump (split system). This was installed to replace a worn out electric storage water heater in 2009.

Heating = Saxon woodheater (slow combustion heater) in the dining room, 3.5 kW electric heater in the lounge, air transfer system from the woodheater with 3.5kW inline electric booster heater to the bedrooms, 4 x 275W heat lamps in the bathroom. Apart from the air transfer kit (installed 2010), the heating came with the house and presumably dates from early 1995 when the house was built.

Heating energy use is high and cooling is virtually zero due to being in Tasmania. The only cooling I've got is a portable evaporative cooler that costs about 1 cent per hour to run and we only get a few really hot days a year anyway so cooling isn't a significant cost. Obviously that's very different if you live somewhere that's hot.

As I said, happy to point anyone in the right direction with this sort of stuff. It's not rocket science and, apart from those living in Vic or SA, is pretty straightforward (it's still doable in Vic or SA, just some more messing about usually).

I've installed a 3.4kw system this week in Perth. To date I've produced an average of 20kw per day for typical Perth summer weather. I've also moved to the smart power tariff at the same time as this also helps reduce cost if you can be flexible with when you use appliances

I haven't done a calculation myself, but from what others are saying, I expect a payback in 4 - 5 years. Apparently the bigger your system up to a certain point, the quicker the payback.

Before I chose a system and supplier I did a fair bit of research. The best resource to use for Australia is the Whirlpool forums. This is a link:

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/138?&g=223

To get to it from the main menu - select Discussion Forum, then Home from the Lounges section. It lists lots of Forums relating to many topics. If you go to the Group pulldown at the top and select Green, it will limit the topics to those related to "Green" issues such as solar.

You will find many topics specific to particular states, as each state has its own feedback tariff system. You will find lots of info on the quality of suppliers and you may find that some who advertise most are the worst to use. I went with GSI Solar in Perth and they have been excellent so far - from pre-sales to installation.

You will find lots of info on roof orientation, system efficiencies and pay back times.

Good reading....

In reply to smurf's questions:

1. We live in the Perth metro area
2. yes
3. panels face in NE direction
4. about 30 degree pitch - near perfect for our latitude
5. tiles
6. our neighbour took down a messy palm tree - that could have become a problem

In May 2009, we replaced an old 50L electric hot water system by a 300L Solargain unit on our roof. After the Government rebate, we were $695 out of pocket. That reduced our electricity bill by about 25%. Perth's rising power rates will shorten the payback period to less than 3 years. After the installation, we activated the electric booster three times for under an hour each time; --> running costs under5 bucks a year.

In September 2009, we installed six Solargain panels of 170W and a 2KW inverter. Out of pocket expense: $3,990. In its first calendar year, it produced 1,666 KWh or a little over 4.5 units per day. During the first year, no special feed-in tariff was paid, which meant we saved "only" an average 18c/unit or $300. Meanwhile, the excess is rebated at a feed-in tariff of 47c; that means we will recoup the investment in about 8 years or less. As Synergy is a little slow with their bills, we don't have a reliable annual average yet. I do consider, however, doubling the capacity, which will cost (un-subsidized) approximately $3,500. If it produces an additional 1,666 KWh per annum, and assuming a mean unit price (mean of feed-in and reduced supply charge) of 30c/unit, 3,332 units per annum will save $1,000 p.a. for a payback period for the total investment of less than 8 years.

RandR said:

Hi !
Were in Queensland, we have somewhere in the vicinity of 160 PV solar panels, covering an area that is 30m x 12m.
- This produces 30kw of electricity, which is realistically as much as you can do (30kw is 3-phase power) and if you produce more then 30kw you get a commercial feed in rate.
-Cost was roughly 150,000
-Annual returns are in the vicinity of 25,000 - 30,000 the variation is dependent upon wheather. Yes, we are getting 20% returns, guaranteed at that rate, by both the government and our contracted energy company, and of course the manufacturers warranty, 20% .. every year ... for 25 years. Which is better then a managed fund
-Our rate of of input to the grid is contracted for a long period of time.

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Dude! That's epic!
Is much from government contributions, or is it mostly the electricity price? Also, why not keep scaling this up? Also, regarding personal use, by your estimate is the area of a 'standard suburban' house's roof big enough to fit the cells required to power the contents of the house? Do you need much in the way for batteries for your installation, or does it just feed into the grid in the daytime?
Cheers

Have just paid a deposit on a 4.14kw system from Central Solar Systems on the Gold Coast - cost to us $16700 after rebates etc. If anyone has any feedback on them I'd welcome it - we've paid a little more to have the Silex panels (made in Aust). We have a 2 storey home with tile roof, unshaded, but unfortunately not enough roof space facing true north for all the panels so will have a split system of north and east. As our daytime use is not large (and I will adjust using clothes dryer from morning to late afternoon etc) we hope to recoup the outlay in a little over 6 years. The net feed-in tariff will be .50c/kw. As our hot water costs are less than $500 pa (due to tariff 31 night rate) we've decided not to bother with replacing hot water until the present system dies - as it is located inside our garage this could be years away - and will probably look at a heat-pump system when that time comes.

I'm looking at getting a 1.5kw setup for my new house. Origin can do this for 3k, however there is the option of using Sharp panels for an extra $800.

Both come with a 25 year warranty, and Sharp's panels are now also made in China, so i'm wondering if anyone can figure any reason for upgrading?

DocK said:

Have just paid a deposit on a 4.14kw system from Central Solar Systems on the Gold Coast - cost to us $16700 after rebates etc.

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Apparently the after-rebate price of the system increases way out of proportion to its power increase.e.g.;

Your 4.14kW system costs $16,700,
My 1.5kW system was $2,990. There are plenty of cheaper ones around for under $2,000.

This is a 558% increase in cost for a 276% increase in power rating.

While we're on the subject, I came across this article;

It is also important to note that if you have a solar PV system installed, your electricity rates will change from an off‐peak tariff to a time‐of‐use (TOU) tariff. This will particularly affect your dedicated off‐peak loads, such as hot water, space heating and air‐conditioning. You should check with your electricity retailer whether the benefits of the time‐of‐use (TOU) tariff outweigh the benefits of staying on your off‐peak tariff. This needs to be considered before your install your solar P V panels

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http://www.nationalsolarpower.com.au/solar-power.

Is this correct?

Calliope said:

Apparently the after-rebate price of the system increases way out of proportion to its power increase.e.g.;

Your 4.14kW system costs $16,700,
My 1.5kW system was $2,990. There are plenty of cheaper ones around for under $2,000.

This is a 558% increase in cost for a 276% increase in power rating.

Click to expand...

This is due to the amount of rebate not increasing in line with the size of the system. My understanding is there is a multiplier applied to the RECs for the first 1.5kw, but not thereafter. Our research led us to believe that there would be less benefit to us in installing a 1.5kw system as on a net tariff system there would be very little, if any, excess production to receive the feed-in tariff. Our savings would basically be whatever the system produced in kw x .21c (our current usage cost), whereas if we install a larger system and manage to generate excess kw, we will receive .50 (from Origin) per kw for the power fed back to the grid. As our power use is much less during the daylight hours (except weekends and school hols when teenagers rule ) we should produce enough excess at .50c to heavily subsidise our power usage at .21c for the remainder of the day. At least - that's the plan.

While we're on the subject, I came across this article;

PHP:

It is also important to note that if you have a solar PV system installed, your electricity rates will change from an off‐peak tariff to a time‐of‐use (TOU) tariff. This will particularly affect your dedicated off‐peak loads, such as hot water, space heating and air‐conditioning. You should check with your electricity retailer whether the benefits of the time‐of‐use (TOU) tariff outweigh the benefits of staying on your off‐peak tariff. This needs to be considered before your install your solar P V panels

http://www.nationalsolarpower.com.au/solar-power.

Is this correct?

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I had also come across this in my initial research - and can only conclude that the "time of use" tariff seems to be a Victorian thing at present. Nobody I have spoken to in Qld knows anything about it, or plans to introduce it in Qld. We can remain on tariff 31 "off peak night rate" for our electric hot water system after solar panels have been installed. Most of the solar companies I've spoken to recommend switching solar hot water systems to tariff 33 in Qld (avail 18hrs per day at 8.712c/kw instead of 21.351domestic rate), but a heat pump system can apparently work quite well on tariff 31 boosting alone unless hot water requirements are very high. I know several families in my neighbourhood that have installed solar systems both with and without solar/heat pump hot water, and most that went for the smaller 1.5kw systems wish they had gone bigger to start with - although most have 4 or 5 people per home.

Thanks DocK. You have certainly done your homework. I live alone and don't use air conditioning, so 1.5kW is all I need. I am still waiting for Energex to make changes to my metering so I can get credits for the surplus going back into the grid. At the moment it is going back gratis. However Energex is busy elsewhere restoring power to the flood victims.

Calliope said:

Is this correct?

Click to expand...

If you are in WA (Perth specifically), you can be on the standard A1 tariff or chose the Smart Power tariff. I have opted for the later, as that makes more sense for my usage pattern.

The A1 tariff is (approximately) 20 cents per Kw hours throughout the day. The Smart Power tariff is (approximately) 40 cents during the working day (9 to 5), 10 cents at night (9pm to 7am) and 20 cents for the shoulder periods. Weekends are similar, without the 9 to 5 premium rate.

Moving to the smart power tariff makes sense if you have low day time usage. You may be consuming 2kW per hour and feeding back 20 kW per hour back to the grid during the day, hence getting 18 kW per hour feedback at 47 cents (the WA rate). At night you may be consuming 20 kW per hour (air con on), but are only paying 10 cents per kW hour for it. Shoulder period somewhere in between.

inq said:

I'm looking at getting a 1.5kw setup for my new house. Origin can do this for 3k, however there is the option of using Sharp panels for an extra $800.

Both come with a 25 year warranty, and Sharp's panels are now also made in China, so i'm wondering if anyone can figure any reason for upgrading?

Click to expand...

The difference is in efficiency;
at peak performance, they may be similar, but at lower light and/or when the sun angle is not totally perpendicular, the polycrystalline and monocrystalline panels perform differently. Check it out and find which is which and how your house and roof pitch match your sun angle.

Thanks for the info Pixel - I'm comparing the answers given here to those of the consultants.

Something I noticed last night coming home from work: At around 7pm my evap aircon delivers a shadow across a part of the area which would have the panels installed.

If this is the case, is solar panels a no go for that short period of time out of the day where there is full light? I also don't have much knowledge of astronomy and the like, but does the angle at which the sun rises and set change?

DocK said:

Most of the solar companies I've spoken to recommend switching solar hot water systems to tariff 33 in Qld (avail 18hrs per day at 8.712c/kw instead of 21.351domestic rate), but a heat pump system can apparently work quite well on tariff 31 boosting alone unless hot water requirements are very high.

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Be warned - there's an awful lot of dud heat pumps and dud installers out there.

If they recommend running on peak tariff then Smurf recommends that you also do some running - well away from that supplier and/or product.

Usage will determine which tariff is most appropriate for a heat pump, but in a domestic situation it should be an off-peak tariff almost always. To do otherwise defeats the financial benefit of installing the heat pump in the first place.

In Qld, most will be best on Tarff 33 but if your usage is lower then 31 should be fine. I'd suggest leaving it on 31, assuming that is already installed for the existing hot water, unless there's a proven need to change.

In regard to heat pump brands, let's just say that if it has a booster element then that's not a sign of good design. If we can heat houses and hot water with heat pumps in the middle of the night in Winter here in Tassie with no booster, then you sure don't need a booster in most parts of Australia.

I have no association with the company, but I'll put a good word in for the Siddons Solarstream heat pump water heater. It's far better than the big name heat pumps in my opinion. It works fine at zero degrees with no booster, and a Google search will turn up plenty of praise without the horror stories associated with Rheem and Dux heat pumps.

The Siddons tank is stainless steel and made in Australia, compressor is Japanese. And being a split system design, you can still have the tank under the house, in the garage etc if you want to. It doesn't have as much fancy electronics as some of the big name brands which is a good thing - it's those fancy control systems that seem to cause rather a lot of trouble with breakdowns.

Whether or not you're better off with a heat pump or some other solar water heater is very site and location specific.

inq said:

Thanks for the info Pixel - I'm comparing the answers given here to those of the consultants.

Something I noticed last night coming home from work: At around 7pm my evap aircon delivers a shadow across a part of the area which would have the panels installed.

If this is the case, is solar panels a no go for that short period of time out of the day where there is full light? I also don't have much knowledge of astronomy and the like, but does the angle at which the sun rises and set change?

Click to expand...

The sun will be further north during most of the year. If the evap cooler is directly west of the panels and only casting a shadow late in the day during Summer then it won't really be an issue. But if it's north of the panels then that's certainly a big problem.

Since they are wired in series, and the panels themselves are also in series, shading part of the array disproportionately drops the output relative to the area shaded. So you want no shade at all if possible for most of the day.