Worst drought ever

[explod]

And perhaps we just shouldn't be growing these crops in areas that can not sustain them and those caught up in the downturn should go broke and move on which is the natural cycle of things. Our romantic notions of living prosporously on the land are obsolete. The answer right now is that water should NOT be subsidised in ANY way, and those who prevail, deserve so. The natural cycle of things...

Have always had a bit of a problem with rice growing in Australia. In lower NSW a mate of mine moved into the rice business(in 1988) and to water a crop we were talking 30 or 40 feet of water a year.

Large crops are grown with a small amount of labour. Asia the rice bowl is the direct competitor, and the producers have always been small labor intensive holdings. employing millions of people, now most displaced to the polluted cities.

Like the small family store versus the supermarket. I notice farmers markets springing up around here all over the place on Sundays. Perhaps the troubled times will take us to better times out of necessity.

 

[Sean K]

Have always had a bit of a problem with rice growing in Australia. In lower NSW a mate of mine moved into the rice business(in 1988) and to water a crop we were talking 30 or 40 feet of water a year.

My point exactly. Rice in lower NSW! WTF!!! If they paid the same for water there as we do in Melbourne then perhaps Adelaide would have some drinking water.

Just why Australia hasn't got behind a water pipeline from northern NT and QLD is beyond me. Let's spend a few billion on a vehicle carriage way, but not on water? Great strategic thinking, fools.

 

[prawn_86]

My point exactly. Rice in lower NSW! WTF!!! If they paid the same for water there as we do in Melbourne then perhaps Adelaide would have some drinking water.

Just why Australia hasn't got behind a water pipeline from northern NT and QLD is beyond me. Let's spend a few billion on a vehicle carriage way, but not on water? Great strategic thinking, fools.

Exactly Kennas,

It is due to government inaction as to why i am proposing compo, nothing on an environmental level.

If you leaders has any balls (are whatever female leaders need) and/or foresight, the whole of Aus could be developed for agricultre.

Look at how visionary the UAE is, and we wouldnt even need desal to achieve the opening up of your desert. Just a simple pipeline (or a few) down the guts from darwin to Adelaide, with further lines running off perpendicular. Imagine the acerage that would open up...

I dont think any politician has ever done anything that has made me increase respect for them, yet do they care...?

 

[noirua]

Too late noirua, or maybe that is their plan; make us into a mining town and all that implies.

Most of the sub-bitumous coal (said to be about 120 billion tonnes) is a long way from Adelaide and some is being looked at on the Phillipson tenement (5 billion tonnes) for the powerstation at Whyalla. Maybe three years before they start using it.
The rail line link into Whyalla needs updating and OneSteel seem to have the majority of the train capacity tied up with Western Mining. However, the Adelaide to Alice Springs rail link runs right through the middle of some of the sub-bitumous coal tenements and iron ore tenements. Pity about the rail problems but about 100 bridges on the way to Darwin has caused problems. Blame it on OneSteel as they produced all the long steel for the project.
There is a fortune to be made but the S.A. Government lack the go-ahead attitude of the W.A. Government in these projects. On one pig iron project W.A. threw $50 million at it in 2003 and RIO went ahead with their furnace producing 3mtpa of pig iron.
The S.A. Government put $6.5 million towards a project and then failed to follow it through because they did not think there was a future in coal, iron ore and pig iron in 2002.

 

[Prospector]

My point exactly. Rice in lower NSW! WTF!!! If they paid the same for water there as we do in Melbourne then perhaps Adelaide would have some drinking water.

Just why Australia hasn't got behind a water pipeline from northern NT and QLD is beyond me. Let's spend a few billion on a vehicle carriage way, but not on water? Great strategic thinking, fools.

yes kennas, yes! And why wasnt it built when the rail was built a couple of years ago!

And the only reason why rice is profitable to grow is because the price of water is ridiculously low. Raise the price of water to where it really belongs (liquid gold even - we have to have water to survive!) and suddenly rice, and corn, and cotton will be completely unsustainable, but that is hardly a problem as it is so cheap to import these from our developing neighbours. May even reduce our need to provide aid to these countries, which I note was mentioned in the very first post on this thread.

We may need to subsidise products we need fresh, like milk, but how can this be such a no brainer, yet nothing happens. Double

 

[Aussiejeff]

...how can this be such a no brainer, yet nothing happens. Double

I think it has something to do with the fact that most Oz politicians seem to spend an awful lot of their time living on a different planet to the Hoi Poloi. From time to time these pollies beam back down to Real Earth, almost inevitably they don't like what they see (everything is in the "too hard" category) and accordingly retreat (beam back up) to **Fantasy World** again quick-smart, before they can be too badly contaminated with radical ideas.... especially from the likes of us.



Sad, but I believe true.


AJ

 

[Sean K]

I think it has something to do with the fact that most Oz politicians seem to spend an awful lot of their time living on a different planet to the Hoi Poloi. From time to time these pollies beam back down to Real Earth, almost inevitably they don't like what they see (everything is in the "too hard" category) and accordingly retreat (beam back up) to **Fantasy World** again quick-smart, before they can be too badly contaminated with radical ideas.... especially from the likes of us.



Sad, but I believe true.


AJ

No votes in a 20 year project.



Maybe an ASF Party to be created!!

 

[prawn_86]

Maybe an ASF Party to be created!!

Then i would actually make sure i vote, as opposed to a donkey vote!

 

[2020hindsight]

1. A big reason is Menindee Lakes. These lakes will hold 1731 Gigolitres and they are still filling. This water is used for domestic water for Broken Hill, and it is also regulated for the lower Darling and Murray.

2. This water argument is so complicated. The plain and simple fact of the matter is that the Murray would have been completely dry by now if not for all the dams and regulated rivers and weirs and stuff, just like it was for long periods in the 1900's.

3. A lot of water was taken from the Darling in just the last few months for irrigation, but before that, I thought none was taken for 5 years. Rice was a non event last year or the year before. The great thing about rice and cotton is that you can stop growing these crops in dry times, and that's what happened.

4. Not so, grapes and fruit. Cotton and rice would have made no difference to water levels in the last few years, because no water ran off, so non was taken from the system.

5. .... Irrigating rice makes more sence than grapes to me. At least rice is a staple food, not so a bottle of wine.

once-ler
some interesting points.
1. ok - 3 sydney harbours (3x562GL) - sheesh, those floods should’ve walked that in you’d think. but at least that will act as a reservoir for a while yes?
Gotta feeling that Eucumbine level is down to less than 1 Syd Harbour.

2. noted – Murray Murrumbidgee Darling, all needing TLC.

3. interesting that you make the case for rice and cotton – a lone voice there m8. Trouble is they are so damned water-greedy when they do decide to put in a crop, and (surely) it’s hard to plan ahead when you get this guzzler messing around - taps on this year – taps off next year etc.

4. Yep they’ve taken out a lot of grapes and citrus along the Murray apparently.

5. . As for grapes …and SA arguably being hypocritical (or wrong priorities) putting in irrigation lines to Claire Valley grapes that will detract from what’s available for Adelaide ….

your comment “Irrigating rice makes more sense than grapes to me. At least rice is a staple food, not so a bottle of wine.” is very thought provoking

I’m reminded of the problem in Sacramento Valley California, (magnificent agricultural area) - where the water is dammed and sent to LA. to cries of WE WANT MORE MORE !! Boy don’t the Sacramento people love that little arrangement.

PS I'm not saying that Adealide people are being selfish by the way - far from it - just that the water supply can't even keep ONE of the parties happy , farmers or townspeople - let alone both

PS THat's Menindee lakes up near Broken Hill . - at least the waterbirds are having a bit of respite

Also there's a photo I took of the Murray at Mildura about 2 years back. - One winding river that one

 

[Aussiejeff]

No votes in a 20 year project.



Maybe an ASF Party to be created!!

I would have thought the ideal of helping to secure the future health and wealth of our children and grandchildren to be a vote-winner. Again, possibly too radical for pollies to accept....

Oh, unless of course the ASF Party were to be elected!! I'm sure WE wouldn't be *korrupted* by the existing *pollies perks 'n power* now, would we?

LOL

 

[noirua]

I doubt that people in Adelaide have the spirit to protest:bier:. I read about the miners in the U.K. who walked 350 miles to London to protest in 1932:luigi:.
Stop moaning, get off your butts and start marching to Canberra:walker::aus:. Leave it until June when it cools down a bit:fan.

 

[Prospector]

5. . As for grapes …and SA arguably being hypocritical (or wrong priorities) putting in irrigation lines to Claire Valley grapes that will detract from what’s available for Adelaide ….

your comment “Irrigating rice makes more sense than grapes to me. At least rice is a staple food, not so a bottle of wine.” is very thought provoking

Yes, but again that is not an example of what 'the average person' has any control over, and the stupidly low cost of water. In both cases, if the real cost 'value' of water was paid by both winegrowers and rice farmers, then neither would exist! We need to really think about what we need, and what we want. We need water, we need fresh produce, we need milk. These are not things that can be negotiated with overseas markets. As much as we would like to, we do not need to have vines, nor cotton, nor rice. Surely someone can use this as a vision to determine the future of the water!

 

[chops_a_must]

5. . As for grapes …and SA arguably being hypocritical (or wrong priorities) putting in irrigation lines to Claire Valley grapes that will detract from what’s available for Adelaide ….

As long as rubbish like this goes on, I doubt anyone will take the concerns of croweaters seriously.

Would Adelaide residents be prepared to compete for water at a market rate?

And all this may become irrelevant anyway if the salinity trends in the murray are true...

FWIW, piping water from the north is stupid. South Australians are going to have to adopt water recycling. I can't see another option. The water that is drunk is mostly rubbish from upstream anyway, so there wouldn't be much difference.

 

[2020hindsight]

I’m reminded of the problem in Sacramento Valley California, (magnificent agricultural area) - where the water is dammed and sent to LA. to cries of WE WANT MORE MORE !! Boy don’t the Sacramento people love that little arrangement.

PS I'm not saying that Adealide people are being selfish by the way - far from it - just that the water supply can't even keep ONE of the parties happy , farmers or townspeople - let alone both

And then there's the waterbirds around the estuary.

And again, the comparison with the Colorado downstream of the Hoover Dam which no longer even reaches the sea.

 

[Prospector]

South Australians are going to have to adopt water recycling. I can't see another option. The water that is drunk is mostly rubbish from upstream anyway, so there wouldn't be much difference.

Grrr, this is so frustrating. I would be really happy to drink recycled water (has to be better than the crap that comes from the Murray) but the damn Government refuses to even consider it.

And again, the comparison with the Colorado downstream of the Hoover Dam which no longer even reaches the sea.

Visited the Murray Mouth recently?

 

[Sean K]

FWIW, piping water from the north is stupid. South Australians are going to have to adopt water recycling. I can't see another option. The water that is drunk is mostly rubbish from upstream anyway, so there wouldn't be much difference.

Chops, Can you do a cost analysis comparison of desalination to SEA compared to a couple of pipelines from the north for us. Might put it in a little more perspective. I'm not really sure what would come up trumps, but my hunch is that desalination is long term more costly than dam and pipe. Obviously a well researched opinion from Lima!

 

[2020hindsight]

1. And all this may become irrelevant anyway if the salinity trends in the murray are true...

2. FWIW, piping water from the north is stupid.

3. South Australians are going to have to adopt water recycling. I can't see another option. The water that is drunk is mostly rubbish from upstream anyway, so there wouldn't be much difference.

1. they'll have to put in a desal plant for the Murray soon you reckon

2. mmm - yet it was put forward as a serious option in the last WA last election yes? Desparate times call for desparate measures mate.

I still think it would we worth investigating tanker trains from somewhere (? - and there's one of the "rubs" I guess)

3. yep - agree that recycling would have to be a nobrainer. - and no more Toowoomba BS campaigns to cloud the issues.

PS Let's not forget that BHP get free artesian water - and mountains of it. -Incuding the stuff that ends up radioactive. And that could surely be paid for to help finance all this. (BHP can pay their way as responsible outback citizens surely)

Grrr, this is so frustrating. I would be really happy to drink recycled water (has to be better than the crap that comes from the Murray) but the damn Government refuses to even consider it.

Visited the Murray Mouth recently?

yep - you should be in charge Prospector
the Govt are too busy taking the piss out of the states upstream .

no I haven't but I think you or someone posted something recently that the pelicans were being decimated (might be wrong)

btw, how's the koala going ? - how much can a koala bear as they say?

 

[noirua]

Desalination Plants in Australia: http://desaldata.com/countries/62
Broken Hill's Desalination Plant: http://www.arup.com/australasia/project.cfm?pageid=6161

 

[chops_a_must]

Chops, Can you do a cost analysis comparison of desalination to SEA compared to a couple of pipelines from the north for us. Might put it in a little more perspective. I'm not really sure what would come up trumps, but my hunch is that desalination is long term more costly than dam and pipe. Obviously a well researched opinion from Lima!

To pipe water from the North to Perth was going to be in the many many billions of dollars. 5+ billion. And maintenance was in the 10s of milions per year. Barnett claimed 2 billion, but that turned out to be a bit of rubbish.

Oh.. here we are:

ALAN CARPENTER: The cost of bringing water from the Kimberley to the south of the state in a canal – $14.5 billion at least – would cripple WA financially.

In fact I would say it's probably cheaper to move Perth to the Kimberley than bring the water down the canal to Perth. That's my assertion about it, looking at the figures.

...

DAVID WEBER: Mr Carpenter says the $14.5 billion is only the lower estimate.

And obviously there is a greater distance to the east...

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1629125.htm

These are the figures for the Kwinana desal plant:

The total project cost was AUS$387m, with annual running costs of under $20m – less than one dollar per week per household. The anticipated water cost has been estimated at $1.17/kl.

http://www.water-technology.net/projects/perth/

And that's for just shy of 20% of our water needs. The extra water costs certainly haven't been noticed by me.

Grrr, this is so frustrating. I would be really happy to drink recycled water (has to be better than the crap that comes from the Murray) but the damn Government refuses to even consider it.

I got very angry with farmers and hicks opposing this last year. Complaining about not havng water, yet not wanting to consider real action.

If you aren't considering this, the obvious assumption is that there isn't a problem, is there?

 

[prawn_86]

FWIW, piping water from the north is stupid. South Australians are going to have to adopt water recycling. I can't see another option. The water that is drunk is mostly rubbish from upstream anyway, so there wouldn't be much difference.

Piping water from the north would not only benefit SA.

If you took a straight line from darwin to Adelaide, and had offshoots off that line it would open up a huge amount of the interior (desert) to agriculture.

Perhaps the land that would have access to the water, that is commonwealth/state owned, could be sold cheaply and then an additional tax or levy of some form paid on the water, so then more and more pipes built, eventually opening up the whole of Australia.

this would increase population and agriculture.

Las Vegas is a good example of a city in the middle of a desert. So it is (relatively) easily do-able