Why do you hate/love John Howard?
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Ants said:
Look, to be fair to John Howard, he has done a lot of good things for Australia. Under his tenure, we enjoyed unparallelled wealth through long periods of low interest rates togehter with a booming stock market (baring offcourse very recent events which had impacted both issues). Furthermore, JH does come across as a strong and decisive leader and does represent Australians very well abroad.
HOWEVER, I totally concur with ANT's comments. I realise that all politicans lie, but JH takes it to the next level. Never before have I seen a politican lie so convincingly, and when found out can resort to the "I was not informed" line. The arrogance of the man is breadth-taking, telling all who cares to listen that if they do not like his policies, they will have to wait for the next election.
JH is able to get away with his antics because he is a wily politican (right at the top of the class on that one), has a political antenna that is more sensitive than most. He understands leverage better than most and is able to constantly destabilise our bumbling opposition leader. Just take the example of past tax cuts that heavily favoured the high income, with peanuts going to the lowly paid. Kim Beaszley refused to support that bill because he felt that too much of it was going to the high earners and not enough to the lower earners. KB wanted a fairer distribution, but JH managed to pass the impression that KB did not support the tax cuts and that everybody should blame KB for not getting their tax cuts.
Unfortunately, being a wily politican does NOT make you a good and up-right human being, just somebody that is skilled twisting stories. Just look at his agreement with Peter Costello on the hand-over of the leadership. There is no question in my mind who lied here, but unfortunately Peter Costello is portrayed as somebody whose judgement is unsound. All Costello did was confirm a story that was doing the rounds, ie he TOLD THE TRUTH, yet came out badly bruised in the battle. Look, not many politicans get the better of the wily JH, but unfortunately, in my opinion, his character is flawed. The man is greedy and arrogant. I don't trust him or like him, but unfortunately we don't have adequate opposition to show up all the flaws in him.
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bingk6 said:
Firstly , don't blame JH for KB looking like a dill for not supporting the tax cuts. It was a no win situation for Beasley and he should have been given much better advice from his party. It was a totally stupid publicity stunt that went completely wrong. Don't give JH credit for the Opposition's suicide missions.
Secondly - Costello should know that JH doesn't have the power to "hand down" the PM job to anyone. It's the party room that decides the PM's position. What has he got to be upset about? John Howard stayed in his elected role for his full term. You could argue that his pledge to the Australian people comes before any backroom deals with party members.
Duckman
Duckman#72 said:
I agree with you that we shouldn't give JH credit for KB looking like a dill. As I said, it is unfortunate that we have no opposition leader that can show up JH's flaws.
Duckman#72 said:
Here I have to totally disagree with you. Would I be so bold as to suggest that if JH really wanted to hand the position of PM to Costello, all he had to say to the party room that he intended to step down as PM and that the party room should start looking for a new leader, Hey Presto!!! Costello is in. JH has the ability to "hand down" the PM job to Costello if he really wanted to. However, he doesn't want to, despite an "undertaking" to do so in the past. So what does he do, he comes up with some BS SPIN saying that he does not have the power to do so. It is just more BS lies we have come to expect from our PM. JH's position within the Liberal party is so strong that nobody in the party room would dare stand in his way if he has his mind set on something. To suggest that the party room could in anyway influence JH's decision is just unbelievable BS spin, yet JH has no hesitation in using it as an excuse when it suits him. What a weasel !!!!!
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bingk6 said:
Peter Costello's judgment IS unsound. Two months ago he was a walk up starter for the next leader of the Coalition but since then he has turned kamikaze pilot. Who is advising this man? Simon Crean? He has lost the plot. Despite not having the numbers in the party room nor having the support of the general public he still hell bent on his drive towards the top job. The man is completely oblivious to the fact he has the support of just 82 people nationwide (81 if you don't count John Hewson - he will support anyone planning to overthrow JH).
Sometimes you can be too truthful. "No comment" would have served Costello much better. Just another example of JH's "political antenna" receiving very clear FM in stereo, and unfortunately Costello's is picking up the French woman's distress call from Lost.
Do I really care about an agreement between Howard and Costello 12 years ago? No. Is Costello telling the truth? Probably. Does JH's reniging on the deal make him a lousy PM. No.
Come on bingk!! JH has been in power for 10 years and in all that time the one main argument you are posting about in which to provide an example of his deceitfulness, arrogance and greed is "the leadership battle".
It's very Australian isn't it - other country's have "real" political scandals - we have two people arguing about who's turn it is to ride the bike.
Duckman
There are really two separate issues here.
Firstly, there is no question that JH’s government has been successful and effective during its time in govt. I freely acknowledge that, with strong share market, strong property prices and low interest rates over long periods, Australians have never had it so good (baring recent events off course). No arguments there.
The second issue relates directly to the integrity, or rather the lack of it, of our PM. This is a different and separate issue to the first and we should not confuse the two. I still believe in the good old days, where a “man’s” word is his bond, where deals were done with a handshake, where his pride and integrity actually meant something in society. These days, we require water tight contracts to police everything, to keep the bastards honest (so to speak). Lets not forget that JH is from that generation.
At the end of the day, we are talking about the Prime Ministerial position of Australia, the most important and prestigious position in the land. Yet the incumbent is somebody whom you would insist on “water tight” contracts should you ever enter into any deals with him. Surely that cannot be good for the country, irrespective of the spin you put on it.
Unfortunately the opposition is incompetent, sterile and ineffective. If Kim Beazley is the best they have, its no wonder JH can carry on in his merry ways. I guess one cannot really blame JH for being so arrogant, as there is nobody competent enough to keep him “honest”.
Firstly, there is no question that JH’s government has been successful and effective during its time in govt. I freely acknowledge that, with strong share market, strong property prices and low interest rates over long periods, Australians have never had it so good (baring recent events off course). No arguments there.
The second issue relates directly to the integrity, or rather the lack of it, of our PM. This is a different and separate issue to the first and we should not confuse the two. I still believe in the good old days, where a “man’s” word is his bond, where deals were done with a handshake, where his pride and integrity actually meant something in society. These days, we require water tight contracts to police everything, to keep the bastards honest (so to speak). Lets not forget that JH is from that generation.
At the end of the day, we are talking about the Prime Ministerial position of Australia, the most important and prestigious position in the land. Yet the incumbent is somebody whom you would insist on “water tight” contracts should you ever enter into any deals with him. Surely that cannot be good for the country, irrespective of the spin you put on it.
Unfortunately the opposition is incompetent, sterile and ineffective. If Kim Beazley is the best they have, its no wonder JH can carry on in his merry ways. I guess one cannot really blame JH for being so arrogant, as there is nobody competent enough to keep him “honest”.
Julia
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Duckman#72 said:
Ah, Duckman. That is just the best summary I've encountered. I'm still in a state of disbelief at Costello's breathtaking stupidity at publicly pursuing that 12 year old chat. As you suggest, "no comment" should have been his only response. A lot of people who may have reluctantly considered him as the best choice WHEN John Howard retires, will now turn their attention to his colleagues.
Julia
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bingk6 said:
Yes Bingk - I'm with you on the disintegration of "handshake agreements" in today's society. Unfortunately it appears that this is a romantic notion from a distant past.
But I just wonder if we look at the past too much with rose coloured glasses. Is JH really the "biggest, lying, most deceitful and untrustworthy" politican in Australian history as some in this thread would have us believe? I don't think so - throughout the ages politicians have become synonymous with corruption, paybacks, greed and backstabbing.
I think it is naive to single out JH as being the biggest bastard. I very much doubt that any career politican leaves Canberra wearing all white.
In my opinion the big difference is the era that we live in. The technological age is such that there are so many ways to instantly transmit information to the masses. So many microphones. So many informants. So many vehicles for conveying information. Our politicians are under much more scrutiny then those of generations before. Are they more deceitful? Probably not - but look out if the media gets hold of something - bang - 6:00 news headlines within hours, then more scrutiny on the 6:30 A Current Affair, then again on the 7:30 report, then more internet updates, then more commentary on Lateline, then the day starts all over again at Sunrise. Not to mention the radio jocks on day and night and the tabloids.
Can I play devils advocate and say that today's current age promotes CYA(Cover Your Ass) tactics - in all forms of life. For example - 10 years ago an overdraft facility could be obtained from the bank with a four page document - now before the bank approves an overdraft they need to get you to sign a full Statement of Advice (up to 64 pages) just in you sue the bank because they gave you the wrong product.
Look at sports people - you tell me that no hanky panky went on with Len Pascoe, Dennis, Rodney and the ladies when they went on the 70's Ashes tours. Did Tim Watson, Simon Madden and David Rhys Jones never visit nightclubs in the early hours of the morning in their playing days?
Times are changing - media doesn't report on the news they make the news.
How would have Sir Joh, Menzies, Curtain, Holt etc have fared under such close scrutiny?
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Julia said:
Thanks Julia. Absolutely nothing positive could be gained by Costello - and he and his supporters should have seen that. I am also amazed at the venom at which the media have pursued the story - as you say 12 years old - which has little impact on current political events. In Costello's favour - he does support the right football team.
Duckman
John Howard's achievements while in office is worth reading.
One of the great things he did was to pay pay back Labor's debt of $96 billion.......the second great thing he did was leave Labor with a surplus of $22 billion in 2007 which as we all know was squandered on home insulation and over priced school halls.+++
He and Costello were good economic managers and something nobody can deny.
The most stupid thing he did was to have stayed in office too long..
Some achievements of the Howard Government (1996 - 2007)
The Howard Government guided Australia through one of the most successful periods in the country's history, helping to take Australia to the forefront of the world’s leading economies. Its economic policies rebuilt Australian prosperity after yet another period of Labor economic mismanagement (under the Hawke/Keating government), which had resulted in the worst recession (and highest unemployment) for 60 years.
The Howard government's policies enabled Australia to resist the impact of the Asian economic downturn, and restored effective full employment.
The prudential supervision of the financial system put in place by the Howard government meant that Australia had no domestic sub-prime crisis. Strong financial institutions underpinned the economy when the global financial crisis occurred in 2008.
The Howard Government's policy success was based on its firm commitment to Liberal values, and a commonsense approach to dealing with problems. John Howard described his philosophy as a combination of economic liberalism and social conservatism.
Some of the features of the Howard era include:
a focus on strong economic management with a commitment to surplus budgets and zero government debt;
the strengthening of Australia’s national security through an increase in defence spending and a substantial boost to defence-ready troop numbers;
record low levels of unemployment achieved by a freeing up of labour markets, a massive expansion in opportunities to acquire skills, and greatly improved job placement assistance for the unemployed – allowing workers to become less reliant on unions;
record federal government funding into the education and health sectors;
a major effort to overcome educational disadvantage (illiteracy and innumeracy), to increase school accountability and strengthen the ability of parents to choose the best school for their child;
encouraging one of the highest levels of private investment in education and training in the world;
low interest rates, strong economic growth and lower taxation;
unprecedented commitment to restoring and protecting Australian land, waters, vegetation and biodiversity;
major improvements in protection of Australia's national heritage;
fostering pride in Australia's achievements and resistance to the 'black armband' view of Australian history;
The economic prosperity achieved by the Howard Government meant that people had more money to invest in savings for the future. Australia’s strong position also allowed the government to invest in new roads and rail, as well as in environmental projects throughout the country.
The most significant achievements of the Howard Government include:
eliminating Labor’s $96 billon government debt - by 2007 Australia was saving $8.8 billion a year in interest payments;
a GDP growth rate of 3.6 per cent on average per year;
increase in average household income between 1994-95 and 2007-08 of 50 per cent;
decline in number of households dependent on government pensions and allowances from 28.5 per cent in 1994-95 to 23.2 per cent in 2007-08;
creation by small and large businesses of over 2 million jobs;
restoring Australia’s AAA credit rating;
establishing the Charter of Budget Honesty and the independence of the Reserve Bank to manage monetary policy;
New prudential supervision of financial institutions through the Australian Prudential Regulatory Authority (APRA
an increase in real wages by 21.5 per cent between 1996 and 2007;
providing the largest tax relief in Australia’s history, and a much fairer tax system from 2000 with the introduction of the Goods and Services Tax (GST) – followed by further tax relief in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007;
lifting productivity on Australia's waterfront to world standards;
the improvement of telecommunications through the privatisation of Telstra and enhanced competition in the industry;
an increase in the number of apprentices in training by more than two-and-a-half times – from 154,800 in March 1996 to 397,400 by December 2006;
ending the discrimination against Australian domestic students by allowing them to invest in their own education, as overseas students were able to do;
increase in total revenue for higher education institutions from $8.6 billion in 1997 to $16.8 billion in 2007;
an increase in the number of higher education students from 659,000 in 1997 to 1,029 846 in 2007;
extension of income-contingent loan schemes to graduate and fee-paying students, including at private higher education providers;
the establishment of a specific Future Fund, providing for the future superannuation liabilities of Australian public servants;
Australia's first national literacy and numeracy standards to identify and overcome disadvantage;
The Socio-Economic Status funding system for independent and systemic schools;
Priority for school-to-work programs such as Jobs Pathway and enterprise education;
development of the civics education program Discovering Democracy to help young people understand our democratic system of government;
an increase in funding for government schools from $1.4 billion to $3.5 billion in 2007/08;
record growth in the manufacturing industry and a record increase of manufacturing exports to $81.3 billion in 2006;
the introduction of the Work for the Dole program, helping to get long-term unemployed back into the workforce;
replacement of the ineffective and bureaucratic CES with the world-leading Job Network comprising not-for-profit and private providers;
increased funding for the Australian Federal Police and an increase in staff numbers from around 2,000 to more than 6,000;
an 88 per cent increase in health spending, with more than $51 billion allocated for 2007;
large increase in the proportion of children receiving immunisation against poreventable diseases;
a nationwide strategy to involve communities in the protection of the environment through the establishment with the States of catchment management authorities across the continent under the Natural Heritage Trust and the National Action Plan for Salinity and Water Quality;
a Water Quality Action Plan with the Queensland government to protect the Great Barrier Reef lagoon;
setting new international standards in the protection of marine areas by expanding from 5 per cent to 33 percent the proportion of the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park protected from exploitation;
establishing the National Oceans Office and the commencement of marine protected areas around the entire continental shelf;
establishment of the National Heritage Council and the National Heritage list for the effective protection of Australia's national heritage;
building of the National Portrait Gallery and planning the new Museum of Democracy;
the Alice Springs - Darwin railway;
Instituting nation-wide gun controls following the Port Arthur massacre;
Strengthening Australia's defence forces and defence co-operation with the United States and Britain;
Declaration of the operation of the ANZUS Treaty following the 9/11 terrorist attack on the United States;
co-operation with other nations and the upgrading of internal security leading to the successful prevention of any terrorist attack on Australian territory;
Effective humanitarian response to the Bali bombing
Leadership of the United Nations mission to restore independence and democracy to East Timor;
Mission to the Solomon Islands to restore democracy;
Support for the successful mission with the United States, Britain and many other nations to restore democracy to Iraq;
Participation with the United States, Britain and other nations to defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan and destroy the terrorist infrastructure in that country;
Maintenance of one of the world's largest programs to assist refugees, while preventing illegal immigration and people smuggling.
One of the great things he did was to pay pay back Labor's debt of $96 billion.......the second great thing he did was leave Labor with a surplus of $22 billion in 2007 which as we all know was squandered on home insulation and over priced school halls.+++
He and Costello were good economic managers and something nobody can deny.
The most stupid thing he did was to have stayed in office too long..
Some achievements of the Howard Government (1996 - 2007)
The Howard Government guided Australia through one of the most successful periods in the country's history, helping to take Australia to the forefront of the world’s leading economies. Its economic policies rebuilt Australian prosperity after yet another period of Labor economic mismanagement (under the Hawke/Keating government), which had resulted in the worst recession (and highest unemployment) for 60 years.
The Howard government's policies enabled Australia to resist the impact of the Asian economic downturn, and restored effective full employment.
The prudential supervision of the financial system put in place by the Howard government meant that Australia had no domestic sub-prime crisis. Strong financial institutions underpinned the economy when the global financial crisis occurred in 2008.
The Howard Government's policy success was based on its firm commitment to Liberal values, and a commonsense approach to dealing with problems. John Howard described his philosophy as a combination of economic liberalism and social conservatism.
Some of the features of the Howard era include:
a focus on strong economic management with a commitment to surplus budgets and zero government debt;
the strengthening of Australia’s national security through an increase in defence spending and a substantial boost to defence-ready troop numbers;
record low levels of unemployment achieved by a freeing up of labour markets, a massive expansion in opportunities to acquire skills, and greatly improved job placement assistance for the unemployed – allowing workers to become less reliant on unions;
record federal government funding into the education and health sectors;
a major effort to overcome educational disadvantage (illiteracy and innumeracy), to increase school accountability and strengthen the ability of parents to choose the best school for their child;
encouraging one of the highest levels of private investment in education and training in the world;
low interest rates, strong economic growth and lower taxation;
unprecedented commitment to restoring and protecting Australian land, waters, vegetation and biodiversity;
major improvements in protection of Australia's national heritage;
fostering pride in Australia's achievements and resistance to the 'black armband' view of Australian history;
The economic prosperity achieved by the Howard Government meant that people had more money to invest in savings for the future. Australia’s strong position also allowed the government to invest in new roads and rail, as well as in environmental projects throughout the country.
The most significant achievements of the Howard Government include:
eliminating Labor’s $96 billon government debt - by 2007 Australia was saving $8.8 billion a year in interest payments;
a GDP growth rate of 3.6 per cent on average per year;
increase in average household income between 1994-95 and 2007-08 of 50 per cent;
decline in number of households dependent on government pensions and allowances from 28.5 per cent in 1994-95 to 23.2 per cent in 2007-08;
creation by small and large businesses of over 2 million jobs;
restoring Australia’s AAA credit rating;
establishing the Charter of Budget Honesty and the independence of the Reserve Bank to manage monetary policy;
New prudential supervision of financial institutions through the Australian Prudential Regulatory Authority (APRA
an increase in real wages by 21.5 per cent between 1996 and 2007;
providing the largest tax relief in Australia’s history, and a much fairer tax system from 2000 with the introduction of the Goods and Services Tax (GST) – followed by further tax relief in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007;
lifting productivity on Australia's waterfront to world standards;
the improvement of telecommunications through the privatisation of Telstra and enhanced competition in the industry;
an increase in the number of apprentices in training by more than two-and-a-half times – from 154,800 in March 1996 to 397,400 by December 2006;
ending the discrimination against Australian domestic students by allowing them to invest in their own education, as overseas students were able to do;
increase in total revenue for higher education institutions from $8.6 billion in 1997 to $16.8 billion in 2007;
an increase in the number of higher education students from 659,000 in 1997 to 1,029 846 in 2007;
extension of income-contingent loan schemes to graduate and fee-paying students, including at private higher education providers;
the establishment of a specific Future Fund, providing for the future superannuation liabilities of Australian public servants;
Australia's first national literacy and numeracy standards to identify and overcome disadvantage;
The Socio-Economic Status funding system for independent and systemic schools;
Priority for school-to-work programs such as Jobs Pathway and enterprise education;
development of the civics education program Discovering Democracy to help young people understand our democratic system of government;
an increase in funding for government schools from $1.4 billion to $3.5 billion in 2007/08;
record growth in the manufacturing industry and a record increase of manufacturing exports to $81.3 billion in 2006;
the introduction of the Work for the Dole program, helping to get long-term unemployed back into the workforce;
replacement of the ineffective and bureaucratic CES with the world-leading Job Network comprising not-for-profit and private providers;
increased funding for the Australian Federal Police and an increase in staff numbers from around 2,000 to more than 6,000;
an 88 per cent increase in health spending, with more than $51 billion allocated for 2007;
large increase in the proportion of children receiving immunisation against poreventable diseases;
a nationwide strategy to involve communities in the protection of the environment through the establishment with the States of catchment management authorities across the continent under the Natural Heritage Trust and the National Action Plan for Salinity and Water Quality;
a Water Quality Action Plan with the Queensland government to protect the Great Barrier Reef lagoon;
setting new international standards in the protection of marine areas by expanding from 5 per cent to 33 percent the proportion of the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park protected from exploitation;
establishing the National Oceans Office and the commencement of marine protected areas around the entire continental shelf;
establishment of the National Heritage Council and the National Heritage list for the effective protection of Australia's national heritage;
building of the National Portrait Gallery and planning the new Museum of Democracy;
the Alice Springs - Darwin railway;
Instituting nation-wide gun controls following the Port Arthur massacre;
Strengthening Australia's defence forces and defence co-operation with the United States and Britain;
Declaration of the operation of the ANZUS Treaty following the 9/11 terrorist attack on the United States;
co-operation with other nations and the upgrading of internal security leading to the successful prevention of any terrorist attack on Australian territory;
Effective humanitarian response to the Bali bombing
Leadership of the United Nations mission to restore independence and democracy to East Timor;
Mission to the Solomon Islands to restore democracy;
Support for the successful mission with the United States, Britain and many other nations to restore democracy to Iraq;
Participation with the United States, Britain and other nations to defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan and destroy the terrorist infrastructure in that country;
Maintenance of one of the world's largest programs to assist refugees, while preventing illegal immigration and people smuggling.
Logique
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Well said Noco.
The best PM of my lifetime. Along with P.Costello, the best PM/Treasurer team since Federation.
Truly the Man of Steel as George Bush put it.
Howard spoke directly to the people, and over the heads of the self-styled illuminati in this country, who in turn were infuriated at this perceived slight, and hissed poison at him at every opportunity.
I agree he did stay a little too long, but Costello never had the numbers, and there was no guarantee he'd have beaten Labor anyway.
The best PM of my lifetime. Along with P.Costello, the best PM/Treasurer team since Federation.
Truly the Man of Steel as George Bush put it.
Howard spoke directly to the people, and over the heads of the self-styled illuminati in this country, who in turn were infuriated at this perceived slight, and hissed poison at him at every opportunity.
I agree he did stay a little too long, but Costello never had the numbers, and there was no guarantee he'd have beaten Labor anyway.
Thanks Logique.......As you may have realized I posted that article for the benefit of Macquack who raised the issue on the RIP Gough Whitlam thread.
