Who trades full-time?

aramz · 9 November 2009

Hey,

Just wanted to throw out a general question asking who trades fulltime and what they like to trade. First off i am under no illusion that i can trade fulltime. I just often wonder what other traders are doing and how some of the more successfull traders are going about their trading day and if they are making a living quite nicely or if they have given it a crack and foundout it is harder then they first thought. When i was a kid i used to love watching basketball videos and seeing basketballers train and play games etc. These guys would be the best of the best and sometimes seeing these videos kind of inspired me and gave me an understanding of what these guys might do everyday to maintain their professional level. I would find it very interesting (believe it or not) to read a bit about a fulltime trader's daily schedule and whether they are enjoying their trading profession and what instruments and methods they like to play around with.

Thanks in advance.

nulla nulla · 9 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

aramz said:
Hey,

Just wanted to throw out a general question asking who trades fulltime and what they like to trade. First off i am under no illusion that i can trade fulltime. I just often wonder what other traders are doing and how some of the more successfull traders are going about their trading day and if they are making a living quite nicely or if they have given it a crack and foundout it is harder then they first thought. When i was a kid i used to love watching basketball videos and seeing basketballers train and play games etc. These guys would be the best of the best and sometimes seeing these videos kind of inspired me and gave me an understanding of what these guys might do everyday to maintain their professional level. I would find it very interesting (believe it or not) to read a bit about a fulltime trader's daily schedule and whether they are enjoying their trading profession and what instruments and methods they like to play around with.

Thanks in advance.

It would be interesting to see the amount of time put in and how it is applied:

Who trades full time;
What they trade;
How they go about their day;
Are they making a living out of it or otherwise;
Their daily schedule;
Whether they are enjoying themselves; and
Instruments and methods used.

psychic · 9 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

I trade full-time and really enjoy doing so. Making consistent profits. I also have a part-time job on the side, just keeps me in the workforce loop if you know what I mean.

I day-trade so I wake up early, reserach, reasearch, research, then trade as the market opens. I love what I do as I don't like being around people too much so it suits my personality.

I use lots of charts and stock dicussion boards as my research tools, along with newspapers, magazine and tv of course

ThingyMajiggy · 9 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

psychic said:
I trade full-time and really enjoy doing so. Making consistent profits. I also have a part-time job on the side, just keeps me in the workforce loop if you know what I mean.

I day-trade so I wake up early, reserach, reasearch, research, then trade as the market opens. I love what I do as I don't like being around people too much so it suits my personality.

I use lots of charts and stock dicussion boards as my research tools, along with newspapers, magazine and tv of course

How long you been full time?

psychic · 9 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

ThingyMajiggy said:
How long you been full time?

About 5 years, with some breaks in-between for holidays overseas etc

vincent191 · 9 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

It really depends on the market. When there is a lot of volatility and offers a lot of short term opportunities it is possible to trade full time. But when the market is moving side ways like the past two weeks it is like watching grass grow. It is time to catch up on some research and take a break. My advise is "do not trade for the sake of trading". I know some friend who fell uncomfortable unless they do some trading everyday!!!! To them it is like an addiction. Believe me, it is possible to get addicted especially if you are doing CFDs and Index trading.

wayneL · 9 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

I chat on the internet full time. Trading is a sideline.

Julia · 9 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

No offence, but I think the question - which is a common one - is the wrong one.

Better would be "who is able to derive a living from the market?"

If you have a reasonable level of invested capital, you don't need to "trade full time".

If, on the other hand, you only have a small available capital, then much more intensive activity is likely to be needed to pull a living.

Amor_Fati · 9 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

If you have enough capital you could "derive a living" from a bank account.

But there is perhaps an in between, where a portfolio is actively managed but not traded. I would say this is where I am at the moment, but this is only one source of income for me and more about building wealth through reinvestment than paying the bills.

I would love to hear more about those who wrest their livings from the markets

LaptopPro · 9 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

wayneL said:
I chat on the internet full time. Trading is a sideline.

Haha yes!

Im Real Estate by day and Trader come evening.

Sir Osisofliver · 9 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

nulla nulla said:
It would be interesting to see the amount of time put in and how it is applied:

Who trades full time;
What they trade;
How they go about their day;
Are they making a living out of it or otherwise;
Their daily schedule;
Whether they are enjoying themselves; and
Instruments and methods used.

Julia said:
No offence, but I think the question - which is a common one - is the wrong one.

Better would be "who is able to derive a living from the market?"

If you have a reasonable level of invested capital, you don't need to "trade full time".

If, on the other hand, you only have a small available capital, then much more intensive activity is likely to be needed to pull a living.

Amor_Fati said:
If you have enough capital you could "derive a living" from a bank account.

But there is perhaps an in between, where a portfolio is actively managed but not traded. I would say this is where I am at the moment, but this is only one source of income for me and more about building wealth through reinvestment than paying the bills.

I would love to hear more about those who wrest their livings from the markets

Define "Trades" - If I purchase an equity position at the bottom of the share cycle and decide NEVER to sell it given the beneficial Cost based yield I have created. I do not trade that position. However if I use an option strategy around that position to generate an income...am I trading? Trading means different things to different people. I agree with Julia do you derive a living from the market is a better descriptor.

I "Trade" CFD's and Small to mid Cap equity positions. I also use options a fair bit but mainly for risk management.

My style of "trading" does not take a huge amount of my time (because I risk manage to a far the well and I can trade from my desk). I therefore work...because I enjoy my job, I make a tidy sum from it and the wife would divorce me if I aimlessly mooched around the house all day.

I work in the finance industry so my day is....kind full and complex. Needless to say whilst I am "working" I am also researching the market, looking at share charts and doing other varied activities.

I make better than 70% of my income from my "investment activities" a rough guess would be that 20% of this is from pure "trading" activities.

Hell yes I enjoy myself.

Instruments and Methods used??? I have a couple of spreadsheets that when blank of information take up about 15 M of space on my hard-drive.
No I will not share. :

Cheers

Sir O

wayneL · 9 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

Julia said:
No offence, but I think the question - which is a common one - is the wrong one.

Better would be "who is able to derive a living from the market?"

If you have a reasonable level of invested capital, you don't need to "trade full time".

If, on the other hand, you only have a small available capital, then much more intensive activity is likely to be needed to pull a living.

Good point.

I don't know why retail traders avoid using the term "professional" trader. If you make a living from something, you're a professional. Reservation of the term for institutional traders is a nonsense IMO.

If you clip poodles for a living, you're a professional poodle clipper.

That way the amount of time spent becomes irrelevant.

ThingyMajiggy · 9 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

vincent191 said:
But when the market is moving side ways like the past two weeks it is like watching grass grow.

What rock have you been living under??

shortlist · 9 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

Julia said:
No offence, but I think the question - which is a common one - is the wrong one.

Better would be "who is able to derive a living from the market?"

If you have a reasonable level of invested capital, you don't need to "trade full time".

If, on the other hand, you only have a small available capital, then much more intensive activity is likely to be needed to pull a living.

I think this is a good point actually and you would need much more capital simply to make a living through the interest on a bank account than you would to make a living via dividends on a pile of shares coming in every quarter. And if you have sufficient capital in a stock then on the days when your shares jump high you can sell a certain amount that equates with the amount gained, pocket the cash and still retain the original sum invested, no?

Those with smaller sums must swim in shallower waters I'm afraid and try and cream off profit pretty much on a daily basis, at least until they have been successful enough to do what I describe above.

On another note, I would caution against too much excitement on the prospect of "trading full time" from your own home or office. Having worked in an occuption that allowed me to spend a lot of time at home I can say that being cut off from the workforce does weird things to a man (or woman, no doubt). I know a very successful day trader who packed it in to work FT in the workforce just for the company and just trade on the side to keep up the skills and knowledge.

As always, regards, SL

skc · 9 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

wayneL said:
I don't know why retail traders avoid using the term "professional" trader. If you make a living from something, you're a professional. Reservation of the term for institutional traders is a nonsense IMO.

If you clip poodles for a living, you're a professional poodle clipper.

That way the amount of time spent becomes irrelevant.

Agree time is irrelevant. But I wouldn't classify myself as professional. For starters if I am professional I would need to pay more for market data! The difference to me is whether someone else pay you to do what you do. A poodle clipper presumably got paid by the clients... If some one pays me to trade I am a professional trader, if I trade my own capital I am a retail trader.

Amor_Fati said:
If you have enough capital you could "derive a living" from a bank account.

I think no one who can make a living from a bank account will be satisfied with an income from the bank account, or could have accumulated the amount required to in the first place. Say you get 5%, you need 20x the amount. So you need to save 20x your annual income after tax in order to live off the interest... otherwise, if you only have 10x your annual income, you are effectively accepting half the living standard as before.

The only way for this to be a real scenario is through inheritance or winning the lotto imo.

Julia said:
No offence, but I think the question - which is a common one - is the wrong one.

Better would be "who is able to derive a living from the market?"

If you have a reasonable level of invested capital, you don't need to "trade full time".

If, on the other hand, you only have a small available capital, then much more intensive activity is likely to be needed to pull a living.

Both valid questions... none is wrong or right. But "derive a living from the market" is off the mark. I think the OP was interested in the daily workings of a retail trader who derive income from trading.

Julia · 9 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

shortlist said:
I think this is a good point actually and you would need much more capital simply to make a living through the interest on a bank account than you would to make a living via dividends on a pile of shares coming in every quarter. And if you have sufficient capital in a stock then on the days when your shares jump high you can sell a certain amount that equates with the amount gained, pocket the cash and still retain the original sum invested, no?

To the last point, yes, that's a rational strategy.
Re dividend income, yes, but imo it's important that in focusing on dividends you don't lose sight of what your capital is doing. There's not much point banking dividends of $50K p.a. if your capital is losing $100 K p.a.

On another note, I would caution against too much excitement on the prospect of "trading full time" from your own home or office. Having worked in an occuption that allowed me to spend a lot of time at home I can say that being cut off from the workforce does weird things to a man (or woman, no doubt). I know a very successful day trader who packed it in to work FT in the workforce just for the company and just trade on the side to keep up the skills and knowledge.

Thanks for raising a really important point. Not every personality is suited to being alone with a computer, minus human interaction.

skc said:
I think no one who can make a living from a bank account will be satisfied with an income from the bank account, or could have accumulated the amount required to in the first place.

The only way for this to be a real scenario is through inheritance or winning the lotto imo.

Not really. I originally got into the share market with profits from real estate investments plus simple rigorous saving.

But "derive a living from the market" is off the mark. I think the OP was interested in the daily workings of a retail trader who derive income from trading.

Perhaps the OP could clarify this. I'd say "full time trading", as in the original question, implies no other income is being derived, therefore you'd have to infer the need to derive a full time living from the market. If you were full time trading (or investing or whatever) when are you going to have time to earn a living by any other means?

aramz · 10 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

Sorry if my original post caused some confusion. I basically would like to hear some peoples daily schedule (can be as vague or as in depth as you like) regarding trading. Some might trade for most of the day but have other sources of income such as rental properties to help support them. I would still like to hear some details of how these people go about their business if they don't mind sharing. With regards to people who trade fulltime and derive their sole income from shares i would like to hear their story even more. Or even a little bit about how long they traded before they decided to quit work and take up trading fulltime and what inspired them to do it and if they enjoy it or if it's not what they thought it would be.

Just some general questions about the trading life with some technicals about their schedule and if they are pulling in an income they can live comfortably off.

It might offer some guidance or give rookie traders some undestanding of what it's like to trade fulltime. Trading fulltime seems like such a distant goal sometimes and and it would be nice to know what it actually is like with regards to spending hours attached to a computer screen or whether someone juggles social life with spending 4 or so hours a day trading etc. Just a bit of insight. When at high school you can do work experience and vacation work all involving a career path you would like to follow. With trading you can't really sit behind a trader riding him while he makes and plans trades.

Any input regarding what i've mentioned above would be great. The more the better.

Cheers.

wayneL · 10 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

skc said:
Agree time is irrelevant. But I wouldn't classify myself as professional. For starters if I am professional I would need to pay more for market data! The difference to me is whether someone else pay you to do what you do. A poodle clipper presumably got paid by the clients... If some one pays me to trade I am a professional trader, if I trade my own capital I am a retail trader.

You nearly had me there, but what about the term professional gambler? I know (knew) many of those.

You imply that only an employee can be a professional.

Is a self employed accountant not a professional then?

I don't use the term for myself because of the industry's hang-up with the word, but for all intents and purposes, I am a professional trader. No big deal though.

pro⋅fes⋅sion⋅al [pruh-fesh-uh-nl] Show IPA
Use professional in a Sentence
–adjective
1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3. appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4. engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.
6. making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.”
7. undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball.
8. of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: a professional apartment; professional equipment.
9. done by a professional; expert: professional car repairs.
–noun
10. a person who belongs to one of the professions, esp. one of the learned professions.
11. a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional.
12. an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro.
13. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

Mr J · 10 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

skc said:
Agree time is irrelevant. But I wouldn't classify myself as professional. For starters if I am professional I would need to pay more for market data! The difference to me is whether someone else pay you to do what you do. A poodle clipper presumably got paid by the clients... If some one pays me to trade I am a professional trader, if I trade my own capital I am a retail trader.

That's a can of worms. As Wayne points out, there are many ways to define "professional". My own definition would be a combination - someone successful, skilled and approaches their work with a professional attitude. I imagine the original intention of the term "professional trader" was used to separate the chaff from the wheat, rather than institutional and retail traders.

nulla nulla · 10 November 2009

Re: Who trades fulltime?

Mr J said:
That's a can of worms. As Wayne points out, there are many ways to define "professional". My own definition would be a combination - someone successful, skilled and approaches their work with a professional attitude. I imagine the original intention of the term "professional trader" was used to separate the chaff from the wheat, rather than institutional and retail traders.

Also the component of trading returns as income in your annual tax return. In my opinion, if trading represented the majority of your declared income you would arguably be a "professional" trader.

Who trades full-time?

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