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What if China stops buying Aussie coal?

Joined
2 October 2008
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Found this quite interesting.
China used stimulus money from other countries and supplied cheap solar panels, to those countries.
Now the market is drying up (loss if FIT's) They have lots of spare solar panels.
If they install them in China they will reduce their dependence on cheap Aussie coal!

·

Giles Parkinson

Hidden away in a government gazette this week was an announcement that China would introduce a national feed-in tariff for solar energy. It took a day or two for the significance to dawn on the market, but it is now being viewed by analysts in an industry full of landmark developments as possibly the biggest of them all.

China has, in recent years, come to dominate the global market for solar panels, but it has so far installed little in its country – just 0.8 gigawatts in a grid that has grown to nearly 1,000GW. It has preferred to use the world market – which has grown to more than 40GW of installed solar capacity – as its test tube, and to refine its products.

And, it has also been conscious of the problems of its wind industry, which grew so quickly that many turbines were either of sub-standard quality or could not be connected to the grid, and it has learned carefully from those failures. Now, it seems, it is prepared to hit the “Go” button.

The cost of solar has dropped so rapidly in the past two years that solar is now thought to be already competitive with wind in many regions in China, some of which have excellent solar radiation, particularly in the western desert regions. These regions can produce solar energy at double the efficiency of other regions. China also needs a smaller tariff than other countries because of lower labour costs and supply chain advantages (they make the stuff there).

And it is also close to parity with coal-fired power for local industrial users who, unlike other countries, pay a significantly higher tariff than individual consumers. According to one report, LDK Solar, China’s most integrated solar energy company, expects the levelised cost of energy of its solar modules to fall below average grid levels in China to around $US0.07/kwh in 2012. It’s a massive irony, and an amazing opportunity for the solar industry that the (coal-fired) electricity used by companies such as LDK and Jinko Solar to make their modules is already more expensive than the energy produced from those modules.

Analysts believe the surge in domestic demand in China also means that costs will continue to fall. Module prices are coming down rapidly – falling by 20 per cent for each doubling in demand, and GCL, a Hong Kong listed Chinese company that has suddenly emerged as the world’s biggest supplier of poly-silicon, and is expected to deliver it at a price of $40 a kilo in 2012, around half of the price in 2010 and one tenth of the price in 2008.

Buckley believes that the economics of solar projects in China will become irresistible in the next three to five years. Analysts estimate that at the current tariff, project developers can bank on an internal rate of return of up to 10 per cent over 15-25 years. With long-term power purchase agreements, that’s enough to attract 80 per cent debt funding for projects. “And once you get to grid parity, solar technology development does not just stop,” Buckley said. “Solar plants with an operating margin of 80 per cent. Parity dramatically changes the dynamics of energy pricing and it will drive average energy prices down over time. It potentially pushes coal from being the lowest cost baseload supplier of energy to being the marginal supply because of its high raw material costs.”

Having started small, the scale of some of the projects being contemplated in China is enormous. The US firm First Solar, which makes thin-film solar panels rather than silicon-based panels, is planning one project of 2GW in inner Mongolia. It will likely be the size of Manhattan.

Still, even at a rate of 15GW a year, solar would remain a fraction of the 100GW that China plans to add each year to its national grid to meet soaring demand. But, if solar’s costs continue to fall, energy efficiency measures take hold, and economic growth slows, then solar – along with hydro, offshore wind and onshore wind – could be accounting for nearly all of the new-build energy plants by the end of the decade. The most obvious victim is coal. That, in turn, could have significant implications for major coal exporters such as Australia.

Discuss!
 
They may find it hard to melt oar and alumina with solar panels.
They are also well into going ahead with about 30(I think) nuclear power stations.
They recently bid on BMN after Japans disaster. No slowing down there it seems.
I just had vision of Mao. He said "One house 20 panel policy. People must pay." Wow the visionary. He looked hot.
 
China is also building heaps of Coal fired power stations. I can't seem them slowing down yet...and it will make out attempts for a Carbon Tax to reduce CO2 a total waste of time.
 
The price of solar panels from China has certainly come down a lot that is true.

But something to bear in mind is that China's coal mining is very much a case of "strength through exhaustion". They have trule massive extraction rates based on a limited resource. By most estimates, there's not a lot of growth in coal left in China before they reach a production peak driven by geological limits (same as happened in the UK 1913). Hence spending so heavily on hydro, nuclear, wind and anything else that works whilst also ramping up coal and gas imports as well.
 
In its annual World Energy Outlook, released last week, the International Energy Agency projected that China’s fossil fuel use would peak in 2024 and start to fall in 2025.

We are at the turning point for China’s energy future,” said Laura Cozzi, the director of sustainability, technology, and outlooks at the IEA, who co-led the project...
 
Won't happen if you listen to Greg Canavan. Everyone's gonna be desperate fuel fossil fuels after all the obstructions thrown in their path results in an energy supply crisis. Why is China building more coal fired plants - assuming that's true? As an investing aside, our best coal miner WHC exports to local region ex China. I also question the climate ideology of the cited author fwiw: https://www.iea.org/contributors/laura-cozzi
 
to be fair , last i heard China is also building extra nuclear power reactors , and building more solar farms

there is plenty of coal in the world but some coals give off more pollution ( and less energy ) than others

i expect China will do exactly what benefits it the most
 
Looking at where it stands today, China claims to have about 140 billion tonnes of coal reserves with an annual mining rate of about 4.3 billion tonnes.

They're going to have to be pretty good at finding more coal, and have some pretty impressive geology, to be able to sustain that long term. There probably is more to find yes, but 4.3 billion tonnes a year, almost 500,000 tonnes an hour every hour of the day and every day of the year, is going to become rather difficult at some point almost certainly assuming China's geology is at least somewhat comparable to that of other countries.
 
Interesting thread. Well done @Dona Ferentes for it's rejuvenation, in a time when energy security and material supplies might be critical.

But, it's also been looked at in other threads, not sure what the direct point is here.

Is it getting revenue from coal sales, or energy security?

I'm leaning towards the benefit to our economy verses giving material to China who are intent on destroying us.

Please explain?
 
Overall I take the approach to China as that to Sabidius and Dr. Fell.

The original by Martial the Roman satirist.

Non amo te, Sabidi, nec possum dicere quare.
Hoc tantum possum dicere: non amo te
,

and then by Tom Brown an English satirist.

I do not like thee, Doctor Fell,
The reason why – I cannot tell;
But this I know, and know full well,
I do not like thee, Doctor Fell.

Let us hope my descendants do not have to join our allies holding the line just south of the Solomon Islands or worst case just north of Saibai, Dauan and Boigu Is. Qld 4875

A respect for each other is appropriate and proper.

gg
 
So another 20y to go full speed at the very least ...and we were saying the same in the 1970s with oil...
Plenty of room for them using a bit of solar for day use plus nuclear .
China will still be burning coal as now if not more in 20y and in the meantime will improve their mining process and emission (real) pollutant scrapping no doubt once they do not have unemployment issues thanks to demography.
Australia has no clue how big coal is in China nor how small our part is in their mix.
Even Mr Smurf , a technically informed forum member, seems impressed and yet this was already the case when I started in coal in 2000.
At the time,China had between 200 and 300 years reserves..
obviously,demand has exploded but China will not lack coal in my or many reader lifetime
 

i believe the coal quality is an issue for Chinese and North Korean coal ( am not hearing anything special on the Mongolian coal reserves )

and Russia has varying qualities of coal as well , i believe the Aussie coal has better energy output ( from some deposits ) and is relatively efficient to mine ... but if a 'hot war ' eventuates i am sure China would find an adequate substitute ( just maybe a lesser quality or at cost )
 
Only a few % of overall burnt Chinese coal come from australia, what we have is very high quality met coal, the one bhp just selling out because of its usual woke puppet attitude and repeated failed business acumen
Intimate knowledge there of the subject.
Some of our biggest exports ports handle around 50 millions tonnes a year ( from memory ) which is 100hours of Chinese production or 4 days...putting that thread into perspective indeed.but a lot of interesting data.
In short, we do not have any leverage on China with our coal, yet this seems to be an ingrained thinking around
 
was aware of large coal deposits in Mongolia but unsure about the quality , but unlikely it is the same level that Victoria is (in)famous for
 
Even Mr Smurf , a technically informed forum member, seems impressed and yet this was already the case when I started in coal in 2000.
At the time,China had between 200 and 300 years reserves..
The basic problem with China is lack of transparency.

Government has extremely tight control over information and it's anyone's guess as to what the real coal reaserves are.

Much like the oil reserves in various countries. When a Royal decree says published reserves can never go down, unsurprisingly they never go down. They just publish the exact same figure year after year - leading those outside to assume it's going down in practice but the truth is unknown.

Even within Australia there are discrepancies. Eg according to Geoscience Australia there's about 5800 PJ of economic coal left in the Collie basin (WA) so more than 200 million tonnes. Meanwhile the mining companies are effectively broke and being propped up by government just to get any coal out of the ground. That doesn't add up.....
 
China has been doing this for years, they stockpile stuff so that they have it on demand. They're manufacturers, they need to get stuff done in order to make money, and of course they use it as a bargaining tool, they've done the same thing with lithium stocks.
 
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