Time to throw in the towel with Intra-day Trading

[CanOz]

After a solid attempt at Intra-day trading I'm going on the record as officially throwing in the towel.

The reasons are all the ones you've all seen on here before, plus a few new ones likely....

The number one reason however, is the bottom line....I cannot produce consistent profits from Intra-day trading. I had good days but they were few and far between. Even after focusing on one primary market, one setup, i realize this is just not for me.

I'm already in the middle of putting together plan to trade futures EOD, starting with the e-minis (no index futures). I'll paper trade my ideas for a while first though to gain confidence. I still have gained an enormous amount of knowledge on the futures markets which will be indispensable trading longer time frames. I'll also start to learn calendar spreading, first in the grains.

My losses for the month, while not devastating were not breakeven, my goal for the month. At a little over 2k it was enough for me to feel uncomfortable. Rather than lose a 50k account, I'd rather admit now what has become clearly obvious to me.

I hope new people starting out with a desire to be an intra-day trader, will first consider going with a Prop Firm in order to make use of the resources and experience offered there. To do this from home under one's own guidance is extremely difficult. While likely not totally impossible, as pointed out many times recently, the drag on profitability by costs and taxes will make this very close to impossible for almost all that try. I truly believe the most consistent profits made in this industry (other than Prop) are made by those marketing the software, indicators, systems and advice....and the brokers.

I have the time and knowledge to put together and test a solid method for trading the markets with a longer term view in mind. This, while still a daunting task, should be achievable.

I can also now use my time study and gain a qualification in Technical Analysis, something I've always wanted to do, as Waza has.

Good luck to all those still trying to make it, Boofis, Havianna, etc...

If there is anything i can ever do to help your journey, please don't hesitate to ask.

Cheers,


CanOz

 

[systematic]

Thanks for sharing so candidly, CanOz. For those not familiar with your journey, such as myself, it'd be great to read a brief history of what your intraday trading experience consisted of (e.g how long did you give it a go for, what were your goals etc).

I personally felt similarly about shorter term strategies in general some years ago, and decided on longer term for me. Overcoming costs and (extra tax) requires quite a bump in nominal return just to make up the difference, at least the way I look at things; and that's quite apart from time considerations. It's never made sense to me to be busier at trading unless it resulted in a suitable increase in the bottom line returns. Obviously some do achieve it, but it wasn't for me.

 

[waza1960]

Canoz good on you for giving it a go and having the courage to admit when your not suited to a particular trading methodology.
Doesn't mean that there are not lots of other ways you can do well in the markets.
I've always admired your market knowledge and passion for trading and willingness to help others.
I believe all those dreamers out there who want to be overnight successful traders would be well placed to
check out your posts and in particular this thread to see that its extremely hard discretionary trading short term and making a living from it.

 

[white_goodman]

most people shouldnt be trading flat price intraday.. its jsut too hard..

dont give up, id recommend looking into curve related stuff... plenty of good papers on the exchange websites

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Canoz, you tried everyone else's suggestions but mine. Isn't that the truth? You got directed away from the psychological aspects, as everyone does. Without going into the 'hows' and 'whys', successful people such as TH always downplay the psychological.

Do this for a month, change nothing in your method, and try again. Risk another 2K. You can even get him to do a personalized tape for you.

http://hypnotictapes.com/transcript...MARKET_POTENTIAL_PROSPERITY_STOCK_TRADE.shtml

 

[boofis]

Canoz good on you for giving it a go and having the courage to admit when your not suited to a particular trading methodology.
Doesn't mean that there are not lots of other ways you can do well in the markets.
I've always admired your market knowledge and passion for trading and willingness to help others.
I believe all those dreamers out there who want to be overnight successful traders would be well placed to
check out your posts and in particular this thread to see that its extremely hard discretionary trading short term and making a living from it.

+1

Well said Waza.

 

[CanOz]

Canoz, you tried everyone else's suggestions but mine. Isn't that the truth? You got directed away from the psychological aspects, as everyone does. Without going into the 'hows' and 'whys', successful people such as TH always downplay the psychological.

Do this for a month, change nothing in your method, and try again. Risk another 2K. You can even get him to do a personalized tape for you.

http://hypnotictapes.com/transcript...MARKET_POTENTIAL_PROSPERITY_STOCK_TRADE.shtml

Thanks GB, i have spent time with a trading coach. I'm all for positive aspirations etc., but what has it done for you?

CanOz

 

[beachlife]

Can I ask what market you traded, what time frame your charts were, what your entry, exit & position size criteria were?

 

[CanOz]

most people shouldnt be trading flat price intraday.. its jsut too hard..

dont give up, id recommend looking into curve related stuff... plenty of good papers on the exchange websites

Thanks Whitey....yeah, i got some stuff from the CME site to consider. Given the fact that the yield curve must be changing....if not already then soon, this should be an area that would offer plays for a while yeah? Has this always been a play that the Prop Firms used?

CanOz

 

[CanOz]

Can I ask what market you traded, what time frame your charts were, what your entry, exit & position size criteria were?

Well Beach, over the course of a the last 18 months i sim traded almost every Asian equity index, the DAX, EuroStoxx50, FTSE 100, and then the last 6 months were almost all Gold and Crude. I tend to like the thinner markets, they held my attention longer.

I use market profile (TPOs), and VWAPs for structure and levels. Then an entry chart usually 150 tick depending on the session and the liquidity.

I used a Depth of Market that was a custom tool, the Jigsaw DOM. I would only risk 1% of capital on each trade.

More recently i just focused on Gold and the stop runs occurring at various levels.

CanOz

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Thanks GB, i have spent time with a trading coach. I'm all for positive aspirations etc., but what has it done for you?

CanOz

What is does is make me do things in a way I perceive a top trader would. So whether I'm looking at the depth, the chart, deciding when to buy/sell... I am doing it as if playing an actor's part. eg. "Would my actor (the top trader) sell now?" "No he'd look at a different time frame for conformation". Or... "Yes, he'd be out immediately - sell now". I become a different person, literally.

If you don't like the idea, try this quick experiment instead.

Look at any chart and decide what Canoz would do, buy/sell/wait.

Now look at it and act the part of G Soros billionaire speculator. Get right into the part. Now what am I (Soros) going to do? Notice how it's different/ So what changed?

 

[skyQuake]

Intra trading on futs and fx is like a shark tank.

Sometimes everyone can get a feast when a whale flounders (eg Japan past few days)


Come over and waddle in the equities kiddie pool

 

[tech/a]

What is does is make me do things in a way I perceive a top trader would. So whether I'm looking at the depth, the chart, deciding when to buy/sell... I am doing it as if playing an actor's part. eg. "Would my actor (the top trader) sell now?" "No he'd look at a different time frame for conformation". Or... "Yes, he'd be out immediately - sell now". I become a different person, literally.

If you don't like the idea, try this quick experiment instead.

Look at any chart and decide what Canoz would do, buy/sell/wait.

Now look at it and act the part of G Soros billionaire speculator. Get right into the part. Now what am I (Soros) going to do? Notice how it's different/ So what changed?

How on earth do you know what anyone else would do in a given situation
Let alone Soros!!

 

[Gringotts Bank]

How on earth do you know what anyone else would do in a given situation
Let alone Soros!!

Method acting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_acting

 

[cbc]

Hmmmmmm

Sounds like u need to place a few more mystery trades, like the one u forgot u had


Buy, hold, forget?

 

[beachlife]

Well Beach, over the course of a the last 18 months i sim traded almost every Asian equity index, the DAX, EuroStoxx50, FTSE 100, and then the last 6 months were almost all Gold and Crude. I tend to like the thinner markets, they held my attention longer.

I use market profile (TPOs), and VWAPs for structure and levels. Then an entry chart usually 150 tick depending on the session and the liquidity.

I used a Depth of Market that was a custom tool, the Jigsaw DOM. I would only risk 1% of capital on each trade.

More recently i just focused on Gold and the stop runs occurring at various levels.

CanOz

Thanks I just wanted to ask before I suggested something in case you had already tried it. I was trying intra day on a 1 min chart and got nowhere. I now use a 2min chart, trading just the morning session of just 1 market and while early days I am doing better. I dont use DOM and I dont use a set I number of points, just a moving average and a trailing stop. Once I reach a set profit I stop. I am still testing so cant swear by it yet. So IF you get tempted to have another go, perhaps try a larger time frame and focus on just 1 market, and work out when the good moves happen on that market. I find the morning sessions produce the best moves and stop by lunch time no matter what. Good luck what ever you decide.

 

[skyQuake]

Method acting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_acting

How does that help? Are you trying to create a confident trader character and then act as how you would imagine him to act?
eg Soros, Livermore etc?

 

[Gringotts Bank]

How does that help? Are you trying to create a confident trader character and then act as how you would imagine him to act?
eg Soros, Livermore etc?

yes, exactly.

I don't throw my knowledge or information out the window, but I apply my character to the information in order to see how it would perceive things.

 

[kid hustlr]

I hope new people starting out with a desire to be an intra-day trader, will first consider going with a Prop Firm in order to make use of the resources and experience offered there. To do this from home under one's own guidance is extremely difficult. While likely not totally impossible, as pointed out many times recently, the drag on profitability by costs and taxes will make this very close to impossible for almost all that try. I truly believe the most consistent profits made in this industry (other than Prop) are made by those marketing the software, indicators, systems and advice....and the brokers.

Based on my limited knowledge I agree with this.

Can I must say I'm surprised you're kicking it in though. I mean you know how hard this game is and despite all the preparation work you have done you have only been trading live 1 month. What % of guys do you think make money in their first month live? I wonder if you're selling yourself a little short.

 

[tech/a]

Can

I may be wrong but are you finding that your being whipsawed?
You just don't seem to be quick enough.
Suffering by death of a thousand cuts?
Suffering analysis paralysis?

I've been there.
This is what I did.

(1) Stripped it back to raw basics.
(2) Widened my timeframe to cut back noise 3 min minimum
This doesn't mean that an obvious impulse move within my 3 minute timeframe can't and won't be taken.
(3) Widened my stop so I don't get involved in hunting --- as often.
(4) Move my stop to B/E as soon as possible ----- then and only then widen timeframe for the trade
IE select an obvious price target which is the most likely and furthest away.

Became a lot less stressful and profitable (4) is in my view a valuable weapon.

Maybe this will be helpful.

Don't let it beat you!