Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

This market has to go backwards

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8 May 2009
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I have put some thought into the latest rally, and for what it’s worth it’s going to go backwards - I don’t know by how much, nor the sectors it will effect.

My reasoning is:

1. 12 months ago the world was going to be sucked into a black hole from which there was no return, hence profits and earnings were decimated and any forward looking statements reflected the end of days for which many predicated. So, no money to borrow, no money to invest, no money to pay people, put people off, produce less product as no one is buying and cant afford to keep employees means no money coming in and very bad results.

So ... why is the market going ahead on the most silliest of pretences?

My reasoning is:

2. If the world doesn’t sink into a black hole, as many predicated, then it means borrowing has increased (by whatever amount), people are buying the product, hence the product is being produced and therefore there is a cash flow coming in and people (some) are keeping their jobs, which means people (some) have cash (some) to spend on those products - and so the wheel keeps turning.

So ... why are all the Mickey Mouse analysts surprised at all the earnings from these companies when it is more than their 'forecasts'?

We all know many of these analysts couldn’t forecast rain even if they were standing in it, yet why seemed so surprised?

My reasoning is:

3. World doesn’t end. Things (generally) stabilise and pull back from the end of day’s predication and hence earnings can’t be as bad as first thought when we were sinking into the black hole, and thus earnings/revenue has to be better than first thought.

However, getting or missing the forecast is one thing, yet this is my thought on why it has to go backwards:

My reasoning is:

4. World is going to collapse. Earnings and outlook very very bad. World doesn’t end. Earnings look better than first thought. However, if in the process of ensuring the world doesn’t end you cut production, reduce prices, cut staff, don’t put as much into R&D or any sort of innovation then your cost base has suitably reduced, yet because of a lack of buying 12 months previous you have a stockpile of stock/goods, hence lots of goods to sell when things pick-up and due to little production and little staff and massive savings in cost means your balance sheet/profits look amazing.

This is just rubbish! So why are people so ready to believe that things have turned? I think they have bottomed, yet turned? You have to be kidding me. Maybe when these companies reduce their goods stockpile, produce more to replace the reduction, hire back some of the staff they put-off, invest in advertising and innovation again and they still manage to make these 'nice' and 'unexpected' earnings upgrades I might believe that we are once again on a true upward trend.

Don’t kid yourself people. Sell now, and buy later, if you think by not buying in now you are missing the move up, just think again. Think, why is it really moving up?:eek:
 
Its moving up cause insto money is flowing in, and retail punters are still staying put; and of course, many bears trying to pick the top of this move.
 
The name of the game is to get into the lift on the ground floor. Hopefully the lift is going up otherwise it will be an unpleasant experience when we hit the basement.

It is all about EXPECTATIONS. Obama said this morning that he thinks the decline in the US economy is slowing. Many observers are saying that green shoots are starting to appear.

Punters like myself wants to get in first. I realise the risk that the worst is yet to come but my EXPECTATIONS are things will start to get better.

It is not about who is right and who is wrong, it is more to do with my appetite for risk which is greater than yours.
 
how can you know this for sure, do u have a source?

Retail traders - Look at OP

Instos - none that i can disclose. But you can generally see which way its going. Eg. CEY large spurt one arvo a few days ago. Insto buying. Big4 upgraded by Citi today, obv some clients will be buying.
AUD inflows, brks yadaa yadda
 
how can you know this for sure, do u have a source?

LOL.

Mate everyone has the source. Prices. Look at the AUD, breakout in Asian indexes, NASDAQ leading S&P, lagging gold etc etc.

Funds are in risk taking mode. Been glaringly obvious for weeks.
 
Also fwiw, Materials and Energy sectors lagging.

Similar to the Financials led rally a few years ago (after 06 correction i think)
 
But surely if earnings stay the same for next qtr or two, market keeps going up because results "exceed expectations", we can't keep trading on expectations? In other words, are we creating a bubble by trading on expectations - if earnings do not improve significantly over the next 12 months?
 
Also fwiw, Materials and Energy sectors lagging.

Similar to the Financials led rally a few years ago (after 06 correction i think)

Retail traders - Look at OP

Instos - none that i can disclose. But you can generally see which way its going. Eg. CEY large spurt one arvo a few days ago. Insto buying. Big4 upgraded by Citi today, obv some clients will be buying.
AUD inflows, brks yadaa yadda

thanks
 
But surely if earnings stay the same for next qtr or two, market keeps going up because results "exceed expectations", we can't keep trading on expectations? In other words, are we creating a bubble by trading on expectations - if earnings do not improve significantly over the next 12 months?

Why can't we continue to trade on expectations?

What do we normally trade on?

Why won't/can't earnings improve?
 
Well, I didnt expect anyone to read my little rant this morning, however I do have to say:

The name of the game is to get into the lift on the ground floor. Hopefully the lift is going up otherwise it will be an unpleasant experience when we hit the basement.

It is all about EXPECTATIONS. Obama said this morning that he thinks the decline in the US economy is slowing. Many observers are saying that green shoots are starting to appear.

Punters like myself wants to get in first. I realise the risk that the worst is yet to come but my EXPECTATIONS are things will start to get better.

It is not about who is right and who is wrong, it is more to do with my appetite for risk which is greater than yours.

Vincent191, your right. Obama did say he thinks the US economy is in better shape/slowing down than previous months. Yet come on, this one is like shooting fish in a barrell. Its such a simple comment. When has Obama not come out and said it was slowing and not all going to hell? His job, is to reassure us all that all is good with the world and everyone will be fine. Do you really believe for a second that if it wasnt he would come out and say, "everyone the world is about the end and you should all just take that pill with your loved ones"? Of course not. The Fed Chairman in the last 4 weeks alone has contridicated himself at least 3 times that I am aware of saying the green shots are green, then there brown, and then they have a greenish tinge to them.

Everytime I turn on the idiot box and listen to equally idiot analysts there are green shoots, then no shoots. Show me someone who says they are green and I will offer up another who says there arent. Their guess is as good as mine, or yours.

I completely agree with you however, that its nice to be getting in the lift at the ground floor, yet a smoother and more controlled ride up gives a better feeling than racing up and having a bit to much friction to snap the wires and we all come hurtling down.

My risk is great at the moment. Yet it has a slight element of calculation to it - right or wrong, I just dont need to be part of the heard, we know what happened to them last time.

But surely if earnings stay the same for next qtr or two, market keeps going up because results "exceed expectations", we can't keep trading on expectations? In other words, are we creating a bubble by trading on expectations - if earnings do not improve significantly over the next 12 months?

Completely agreed. Tech bubble? Anyone remember that one? Housing bubble? Anyone remember that one - you should, thats the mess right now!

I am not trying to suggest the market is going to crash and burn, yet - and I know this is only a dream - some responsibility would be great when it comes to avoiding this 'bloody and horrible' mess in the future. I dont have millions to lose, and if I did, I still wouldnt want to lose it in this haphazard and irresponsible fashion.
 
yeh,

but how does this:


tell you that:
"insto money is flowing in, and retail punters are still staying put"

I don't care what retail traders think or do. Just have a look at the H & S thread to see how clueless they are!!

The only thing that moves markets in sync with currencies are insto. That's why the AUD got F up big time last year along with the XAO. Global funds where retiring, risk adverse. The only thing that will move Indexes and currencies is global funds seeking risk or retreating from it.

Have a look at what is moving relative to other things,

safe USD to commodities Currencies. Don't argue with me about the safe bit.

Tech stocks vs old industrial (nasdaq v sp500).

Asian stock index vs Euro indices.

This is the basis of trading, funds are global and very fast in nature. They move quickly and they leave footprints forget TA, FA, and everything else. First learn why markets move ...... it isn't because a stochastic has reached oversold. Its because elephants decided to stampede
 
I don't care what retail traders think or do. Just have a look at the H & S thread to see how clueless they are!!

The only thing that moves markets in sync with currencies are insto. That's why the AUD got F up big time last year along with the XAO. Global funds where retiring, risk adverse. The only thing that will move Indexes and currencies is global funds seeking risk or retreating from it.

Have a look at what is moving relative to other things,

safe USD to commodities Currencies. Don't argue with me about the safe bit.

Tech stocks vs old industrial (nasdaq v sp500).

Asian stock index vs Euro indices.

This is the basis of trading, funds are global and very fast in nature. They move quickly and they leave footprints forget TA, FA, and everything else. First learn why markets move ...... it isn't because a stochastic has reached oversold. Its because elephants decided to stampede

nice, well explained
 
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