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The Voice

They are NOT relevant.
They are directly relevant so long as it's government pushing the message.

Every now and then someone conducts as survey of Australians' trust in professions and the results are consistent - politicians are at or very close to the bottom meanwhile the medical profession is at the top.

Hence the resistance to pretty much any major reform in Australia. When the information's coming from the least trusted people in society, ordinary people who lack a deep understanding of the issues are inherently cautious.

That's not a judgement on the Voice itself. It's saying why the "trust me" approach isn't being accepted.
 
They are directly relevant so long as it's government pushing the message.
Incorrect.
Your points were not in any way relevant to what the Voice is proposed to be and what it would do. Where have you provided an example of a body that only provides advice being a concern?
Furthermore, Labor is proposing a "yes" vote but the government is only proposing a referendum, so your claim about the government's push is also wrong. There is no funding from government for either campaign.
Every now and then someone conducts as survey of Australians' trust in professions and the results are consistent - politicians are at or very close to the bottom meanwhile the medical profession is at the top.
So what!
This has zero relevance to the referendum question.
As a by the bye, however, using your logic we should be wary of the AMA who also provides advice to government.
Hence the resistance to pretty much any major reform in Australia. When the information's coming from the least trusted people in society, ordinary people who lack a deep understanding of the issues are inherently cautious.
You have overlooked the fact that this was never going to be a political stoush, and only after Dutton decided to change that did waters get muddied. Since Dutton's involvement there has been a constant stream of misinformation and outright lies about the Voice. I have pointed many of these out in this thread. That was followed by conservative media supporting Dutton so we now have them peddling nonsense as well.
Oh, if you don't believe it got political you should read about how the LNP cherry picked expert legal advice to make false claims in Parliament and the media about possible legal challenges emanating from the Voice.
That's not a judgement on the Voice itself. It's saying why the "trust me" approach isn't being accepted.
I think you are confused here.
"Trust me" = Dutton?
Or Albanese?
It cannot be both.
That's where the campaign stands as the Voice went from being a good idea for change with bipartisan support to a political arena where ideologies trump common sense.
 
Yes, it does look like a lot of work for the courts & lawyers, given that the Yes side can only yell derogatory abuse at everyone. Sort of shows how sad their understanding is.
Perhaps you can explain what you are talking about.
If it's about sovereignty then the courts can have no involvement, as sovereignty is vested through the people in our Constitution.
If it's about the Voice then you should read the expert legal opinions that contradict your claim.

I look forward to reading your opinion via the AFR or another source seeing you have none of your own date.
 
I'll save everyone a lot of guesses, they'll use govt funding to challenge the crown over sovereignty, then the whole of Australia will have to pay extra taxes for a minority group that doesn't want to help itself and lives in the past.

This is what I fear -

"The lesson is this. A Yes vote in the referendum is not the end of the process but rather the starting gun to a long and divisive treaty negotiation where the voice has the whip hand. This will likely lead to separatism and bitterness, not reconciliation."

 
More baseless scaremongering.
This is where social media removes all semblance of rationality from the referendum question because "no" voters are want to scuttle the vote and make this about them and not the 3% of the population who want to get on an equal footing with non-indigenous people.
 

The Uluru statement is militant. It offers no sentence of respect or gratitude to the Australian people. Yet it is hailed by Albanese as warm hearted and generous. He even announced in a memorial lecture in Adelaide recently that it was an invitation extended “to every single Australian in love and grace and patience”.
Meanwhile, their cry of “powerlessness” is a kind of crocodile tear. In the past half-century Aboriginal groups have been handsomely recognised by their acquisition – under the Fraser and Keating governments – of ownership or certain rights and interests in 55 per cent of the Australian land mass. Few Australian voters know this fact. It constitutes one of the largest peaceful transfers of land in the history of the modern world.

 
I can donate to your psyche appointment if you like.
FYI courts can only decide upon laws, and "sovereignty" is a concept, not a law.

You should join @SirRumpole in the closet. Just ask @JohnDe for the keys.
I don't understand why 'the voice' if only claiming to be an indigenous advisory group to parliament would need to amend the Australian constitution to be in existence.

The sovereignty of the land is held under the governor general on behalf of the British king, they're more or less are the ruler of the land and this is achieved by the constitution. The constitution is a document that gives the government and people certain powers with the law in Australia, like making new laws and amending them. They honestly lost my vote at this point, the constitution is something that shouldn't be tampered with. Does this mean under the human rights act that every minority group in Australia needs to amend the constitution to advise the government in Australia, do you see where it's all heading?
 
I don't understand why 'the voice' if only claiming to be an indigenous advisory group to parliament would need to amend the Australian constitution to be in existence.
I agree that you do not understand.
You should join @SirRumpole and a few others here in a study group to learn about why and how the Voice came about.
The sovereignty of the land is held under the governor general on behalf of the British king,
Although we are a constitutional monarchy, we are a sovereign nation.
That means our Parliament makes the laws, and our Constitution provides the framework for our system of government.
Sovereignty per se is relegated to concepts of where power lies in its various spheres. As there are no laws specific to sovereignty our High Court will never be troubled by claimants.
They honestly lost my vote at this point, the constitution is something that shouldn't be tampered with.
Constitutions are not Bibles. They are living documents that need to change with the times. For example, if the British got rid of the monarchy why then would we retain a reference to the King?
Does this mean under the human rights act that every minority group in Australia needs to amend the constitution to advise the government in Australia, do you see where it's all heading?
You really are confused: read my first sentence!
 

Take this into account "In the past half-century Aboriginal groups have been handsomely recognised by their acquisition – under the Fraser and Keating governments – of ownership or certain rights and interests in 55 per cent of the Australian land mass. Few Australian voters know this fact. It constitutes one of the largest peaceful transfers of land in the history of the modern world"

Before we vote on Indigenous voice to parliament, let’s get all our facts in order
GEOFFREY BLAINEY
 
Nothing to do with the voice on the face of it, but.....

 
I think the referendum is going to have to be postponed. It's dying.



Veteran Aboriginal activist Michael Mansell is urging Anthony Albanese to cancel the voice referendum in the face of falling support and instead legislate an advisory body and start treaty talks.

Mr Mansell, who is chair of the Aboriginal Land Council of Tasmania, told The Weekend Australian the Prime Minister should drop the referendum and negotiate with “progressive” voice opponents on alternatives.

The lawyer and leading advocate for Indigenous Tasmanians since the 1970s said these could include legislating a voice, Aboriginal-designated parliamentary seats and a national treaty and truth-telling process.
 
I think you are confused here.
"Trust me" = Dutton?
Or Albanese?
It cannot be both.
Albanese is taking a "trust me" approach in asking the public to vote the Voice in a referendum then leaving parliament to sort out the details. He being the person of relevance as the current Prime Minister and the highest profile advocate for the "Yes" argument.

Why can't we have parliament give us the full details first then we'll have the referendum?

Please don't anyone tell me it's due to administrative efficiency or anything like that. That's an excuse not a reason given the importance of the issue.

In any other situation where someone's seeking approval over a matter of significance that's how it works unless they have a sufficiently high degree of trust in the individual(s) involved. For most though well the boss, bank, parent, , client, local council or whoever's giving approval wants all the details up front before they decide yes or no.

If it wasn't for that detail, the "yes" case would be an easy win assuming the details are in fact acceptable to the majority of Australians. It's the secrecy combined with the lack of trust in politicians generally that's fuelling the "no" side.
 
Incorrect.
Your points were not in any way relevant to what the Voice is proposed to be and what it would do.
They are however very relevant to the problem that it's being proposed by government in a manner that asks the voters to trust government with the details.

That idea doesn't work when politicians are literally the least trusted profession in society.

What's on the mind of many is the idea that the referendum is passed, the Yes case wins, then parliament promptly changes the details to something substantially different to what people thought they'd voted for. Bait and switch, that's what's on the minds of many.

There's also the broader political implications. There's a very real risk government blows itself up over this in my view. If I were them then I'd be pursuing policies that aim to unite the Australian people and which make it extremely clear the Australian government stands firmly behind Australia and Australians regardless of the details. That's what's missing at the moment - trust and unity. Fix that first then we have a much easier path forward for the rest.
 
That is not a valid argument as it's what the Voice can do that is relevant. All you are doing is believing a distraction is relevant because you have not worked out that these "details" can not only be settled by Parliament, but will be constantly subject to change by Parliament. The other fact here is that it was a very deliberate decision of the Referendum Council - another bipartisan body - to keep the question simple and not go down the path of the problematic question put on the "republic" referendum.
Why can't we have parliament give us the full details first then we'll have the referendum?
See above. But also remember the framework has been laid out in the comprehensive report by Calma and Langton which you appear not to have read, so this is no different to any proposition the Parliament approves in the course of normal business where a budget allocation has been made.
Please don't anyone tell me it's due to administrative efficiency or anything like that. That's an excuse not a reason given the importance of the issue.
The important issue is not how it operates, it's what it does. What it does is provide advice, and cannot be more simple to understand.
You are now getting heavily into the "excuse" camp and indulging in distraction, because what is much more important is what the existing machinery of government does with this advice. Remember that every single lobby group is constantly providing advice to government and all departments already have a framework to deal with it.
Another case of false equivalence. We already have hundreds of bodies giving advice to government, and government responding. Why can't you explain what is different with the Voice by way of example?
You need to look closely at the questions you are putting because they simply are not valid.
If it wasn't for that detail, the "yes" case would be an easy win assuming the details are in fact acceptable to the majority of Australians. It's the secrecy combined with the lack of trust in politicians generally that's fuelling the "no" side.
In fact it's people who look for distractions that are fuelling the "no" vote.
Your claim of "secrecy" is more a reflection of wilful ignorance.
 
They are however very relevant to the problem that it's being proposed by government in a manner that asks the voters to trust government with the details.
That idea doesn't work when politicians are literally the least trusted profession in society.
The referendum is not a "problem".
In fact it's the very opposite as it seeks to redress systemic disadvantage.
As I said in my reply above, there are details of how the Voice can operate to provide advice if you care to look. But the key to the Voice is the response of agencies that get that advice. I repeat that there is a well established framework in all government agencies for handling "advice" so that level of detail seems unnecessary.
What's on the mind of many is the idea that the referendum is passed, the Yes case wins, then parliament promptly changes the details to something substantially different to what people thought they'd voted for.
As I said, "no" voters are relying on distraction, misinformation and lies. Anyone who has a clue would know that Parliament can and does change policies throughout the year, but the Constitutional change is only relevant to the issue of recognising first nations peoples.
You cannot fix ideology.
How do you overcome bigots like Dutton who has a track record of ignoring the plight of indigenous people, and gaslights a previous bipartisan approach?
How do people who prefer to focus on irrelevances ever get convinced that they are not looking in the right direction?
Why are people who will never be affected by the Voice - some 97% of the population - unwilling to consider how it stands to make a significant difference to the lives of indigenous people?
This referendum was never going to be divisive until certain self interests decided to make it so.
To suggest it's about "trust" is, imho, a convenient distraction at best, and more likely a poor reading of the realities of Australian politics and the role of conservative media.
 
Changing the constitution without facts can be ambiguous and not just that, it's discriminatory against every other Australian to give one group a biased advantage in their so called advocacy. Our legislative system is meant to make things fair for everyone. There is only one reason why they're quiet on the constitutional changes they want to make, it's like a modern day trojan horse.

Anyone in Australia can give a speech in local council chambers as a special interest group within reason, any special interest group can be represented by an MP and or cabinet member. What they're saying is just pure rubbish because there is a lot more to this story. You can't hold current day councils and governments in contempt for what happened over 200 years ago. Only people that have something to gain and loonies would vote yes to this.
 
Why are people who will never be affected by the Voice - some 97% of the population - unwilling to consider how it stands to make a significant difference to the lives of indigenous people?

I don't think it's clear that non indigenous people will not be affected by the Voice.

If the WA legislation on aboriginal heritage can be accepted by a virtue signalling government then who knows how far this sort of idea will spread, and landholders may be deprived of the beneficial use of their own property.

The risk to the majority is high in my opinion.
 
My son came up from Collie this morning to bring one of the grandkids for the school holidays, I casually asked him how people are taking the 'Voice' and the new aboriginal heritage news, he said in the works lunchroom everyone is going ballistic.
So with Collie being a really 100% strong Labor seat, that's an interesting reaction, it may backfire on Labor a lot worse than they expect.
Time will tell, maybe everyone will settle down, maybe they wont, the 'voice' is probably going to be a good indicator of how Albo is travelling.
 
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Might be best for him electorally to ditch The voice if its obvious its not going to pass and get back to bread and butter issues like cos t of living.

Only thing us I don't know if he can drop the referendum once the enabling Bill gas been passed.
 
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