Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

The power of property...

Realist

Billie Jean is not my lover
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Imagine you have $50,000 to invest...

You ask the bank to borrow money to buy shares or a house, they will lend you $100K to buy shares and $250K to buy a house.

Then imagine they both go up 10% each year for 5 years.

You'll make more buying a house right? :rolleyes:

That is the conclusion of some stupid woman called Karina in this morning's Daily Telegraph who wrote the book "The power of property".

This irks me how so much disinformation goes out to the public by morons who probably made a little money during the last property boom and think they are experts.....

Dear oh dear.... :cool:

My thoughts...

First of all leverage works both ways, and in most cases for most people it should be avoided with both shares and investment properties. Sure there are times it works in your favour but you need to be very careful especially if interest rates are high.

Secondly if your property goes up 10% each year and you are paying 7.5% interest on 84% of your asset, as well as stamp duties, agents fees, repairs, rennovations, empty time, rates, body corporate fees, water, insurance, advertising, capital gains tax then against inflation you will make bugger all.

Thirdly history shows that shares (including dividends) increase significantly more than property and once bought have zero costs involved, few problems like bad tenants, places you can't sell easily and a well diversified fund in foreign and ASX shares is safer than having one property as Sydney owners have found recently and Perth owners are about to discover.

Finally there is contention about whether the ASX and resource stocks in particualr are overvalued. There are arguments either way and the solution is to be diversified and have overseas shares as well. There is virtually no argument that property is overvalued though, if you are expecting 10% gains each year for the next 5 years you are dreaming!! 10% is conservative after dividends for ASX stocks.


Anyone disagree?? (apart from tech/a)
 
Imagine you have $50,000 to invest...

You ask the bank to borrow money to buy shares or a house, they will lend you $100K to buy shares and $250K to buy a house.

Then imagine they both go DOWN 10% each year for 3 years.

:cool:
 
Realist you have to accept the following fact

PROPERTY IS AN ESSENTIAL PART OF WEALTH CREATION!

You can't argue with over 3,000 years of history my friend, you just can't, find anyone who has a great fortune and you'll most surely find 3 common factors,

1. They Invest their money and make it work for them (Shares, bonds, funds whatever)

2. They own property

3. They own their own business


Those are the three golden rules to wealth creation,

You have to remember something property always has an actual fundamental demand behind it, being that people want live in houses and companies want to occupy office space

While you can say shares have a demand behind them, its more of a want to generate a return on money, rather than a NEED to have a roof over one's head.

You just can't ignore the fact that the goal for the mass public in life is to oneday own their house, not to rent forever

Also once your investment portfolio grows large enopugh, there's only so much money you want in the mkt (hence why I bought anohter property back in March)

So in short while you may think that property is not as 'good' an investment as shares, it is nevertheless an essentail component to wealth creation and protection.
 
YOUNG_TRADER said:
2. They own property

YT, of course rich people own property, they own a home they live in, why wouldn't they, they can afford to afterall.

Rich people own cars as well, they own washing machines and tv's and a pair of jeans - does that make them rich, or do they buy them cause they are rich?

I am all for buying your own home. And with stamp duty exemptions, first home owner grants and no CGT taxes as such then it will usually be better off longterm financially than renting. Much like owning your own car is cheaper than leasing in most cases.

However I question the merit of property investing. Stamp duties, CGT taxes, low rental yields, empty time, agent fees, high interest rates etc. all chip away at any profits.

If you are to make money on property investing you need to postively gear if at all possible, get good longterm tenants, and hold to reduce taxes. You also need to pick your time to buy, 70% of years are poor to buy from what I know. Only 30% of years, so 3 out of 10 will you get significant captial gains.

Investing in highly profitable fair priced shares that pay dividends will give you far better returns.

People need to get out of this property never goes down, and shares are risky mindset. The opposite is infact true IMHO.
 
2 Things

1. Real estate is the largest invesment asset in the world by trillions of dollars, nothing even comes close!

2. Real estate is the oldest investment asset class by far, nothng again comes close!

You just can't dispute is power and influence

Also I wasn't saying rich people own property because they're rich, I was saying that alot of poeple I know have accumulated huge fortunes through following those 3 golden rules, one of which included owning plenty of real estate,


Call me crazy but I chose to follow in the footsteps of alot these people as they enjoy the lifestyles I envy and drive the cars I want!
 
YOUNG_TRADER said:
2 Things

1. Real estate is the largest invesment asset in the world by trillions of dollars, nothing even comes close!

2. Real estate is the oldest investment asset class by far, nothng again comes close!

You just can't dispute is power and influence

Also I wasn't saying rich people own property because they're rich, I was saying that alot of poeple I know have accumulated huge fortunes through following those 3 golden rules, one of which included owning plenty of real estate,


Call me crazy but I chose to follow in the footsteps of alot these people as they enjoy the lifestyles I envy and drive the cars I want!

What you say is correct.

People do make money from real estate. No doubt about it.

However my point is you will make more money from shares, and currently it is clear that real estate is generally overvalued and some people are losing money.

It is obvious you agree with me to some point, cause you are on a share site, not a property site.. :D
 
YOUNG_TRADER said:
2 Things

1. Real estate is the largest invesment asset in the world by trillions of dollars, nothing even comes close!

2. Real estate is the oldest investment asset class by far, nothng again comes close!

You just can't dispute is power and influence

Also I wasn't saying rich people own property because they're rich, I was saying that alot of poeple I know have accumulated huge fortunes through following those 3 golden rules, one of which included owning plenty of real estate,


Call me crazy but I chose to follow in the footsteps of alot these people as they enjoy the lifestyles I envy and drive the cars I want!

hehe what cars do u want?

thx

MS
 
Times are a changing though....

Young people are seeing less value in housing and more value in shares.

Its much harder to break into the housing market nowdays.

Never b4 has the average Joe blow been able to afford or have easy access to the share market.

The sharemarket has only ever been for the rich.

Now days its a very different.

Hey I can even buy a parcel of shares for $27 in my underwear all in the privacy of my own home:eek:
 
YOUNG_TRADER said:
Call me crazy but I chose to follow in the footsteps of alot these people as they enjoy the lifestyles I envy and drive the cars I want!


Oh dear, oh dear.

From what I know Warren Buffet, Ben Graham and Ingvar Kampstrad (Ikea) drove oldish boring cheapish cars.

And that says alot about them, and their lives to me...

No offence if you are a car enthusiast.... But it says alot about someone who owns a brand new high performance European car and drives around the city.

It says to me they are too status concious, they waste their money, probably know very little about cars, probably drive slow and incompetently and use about 10% of the cars performance, they probably owe alot of money, and probably think they are sh*t hot!

Shares are a great investment, property is a good investment, cars are a rotten investment. ;)


Car enthusiasts are excepted.... (just)
 
Stop_the_clock said:
Young people are seeing less value in housing and more value in shares.

Its much harder to break into the housing market nowdays.

Never b4 has the average Joe blow been able to afford or have easy access to the share market.

The sharemarket has only ever been for the rich.

Now days its a very different.


Excellent point.

It used to be easy and wise for young people to buy a house, and too difficult to buy shares.

Now the opposite is the case.. :D
 
How about LPT (Listed Property Trust)? In that way, you are investing in property (office, industrial, hotel, ... etc) but still have the feel of investing in shares. :)
 
chansw said:
How about LPT (Listed Property Trust)? In that way, you are investing in property (office, industrial, hotel, ... etc) but still have the feel of investing in shares. :)

Westfield!! :D
 
Realist said:
Westfield!! :D
Westfield is a good one. In Jan Somers's book "More wealth from residential property" (2001. p.63), she mentioned if someone invested $1000 in Westfield shares in 1960, they'd worth $109 million today (with all the dividends reinvested). On the other hand,if someone bought a small flat on the outskirts of Sydney, it would probably be worth only $100,000 today. Please bear in mind the book was published in 2001. Her point is you can do well in both property and shares if you buy the right one. I think both shares and property should be in any one's wealth creation portfolio. If you cannot buy your house at this stage, maybe buy some LPTs first. The average return of LPT in the last 36 years (from 1971 to 2006 30 Jun) is 14.9% where the average return of Australian shares for the same period is 13.3%. (According to The Vanguard Index Chart 2006)
 
Were Westfield shares listed and available to the general public in 1960? :confused:

Either way yeah I wish I had bought some in 1960 (many years before I was born).

I have DBR as well, has done me nicely. DB Reef trust..
 
Realist said:
Were Westfield shares listed and available to the general public in 1960? :confused:

Either way yeah I wish I had bought some in 1960 (many years before I was born).

I have DBR as well, has done me nicely. DB Reef trust..
The following is from the history section on Westfield web site. Westfield listed on Sydney Stock Exchange in 1960. ;)


1960-1969
1969
Miranda centre purchased
Doncaster Shoppingtown opens

1968
Hornsby centre enlarged to four times its original size

1967
Toombul opens

1966
Burwood opens

1965
Figtree opens

1963
Centres built at Yagoona, Dee Why and Eastwood

1961
Hornsby Shoppingtown opens

1960
Westfield Development Corporation lists on the Sydney Stock Exchange
 
According to the 3 golden rules to wealth creation, i need to quit being an economics teacher and start up my own business. But what to do is the problem! Maybe a fish n chip shop!!!! haha
 
car enthusiasts should be exempted only through disability... it is a disability and a very costly one :banghead:

and fish and chip shops arent such a bad idea... i worked in one in my (even) younger days and the owner did VERY well. built the business from nothing, worked bloody hard, made a **** load of money and then sold it for ~$300k after about 7 years.
 
YOUNG_TRADER said:
Realist you have to accept the following fact

PROPERTY IS AN ESSENTIAL PART OF WEALTH CREATION!

You can't argue with over 3,000 years of history my friend, you just can't, find anyone who has a great fortune and you'll most surely find 3 common factors,

1. They Invest their money and make it work for them (Shares, bonds, funds whatever)

2. They own property

3. They own their own business


Those are the three golden rules to wealth creation,

You have to remember something property always has an actual fundamental demand behind it, being that people want live in houses and companies want to occupy office space

While you can say shares have a demand behind them, its more of a want to generate a return on money, rather than a NEED to have a roof over one's head.

You just can't ignore the fact that the goal for the mass public in life is to oneday own their house, not to rent forever

Also once your investment portfolio grows large enopugh, there's only so much money you want in the mkt (hence why I bought anohter property back in March)

So in short while you may think that property is not as 'good' an investment as shares, it is nevertheless an essentail component to wealth creation and protection.

Some are sugesting that many boomers close to retirement will sell off their business and investment properties to take advantage of the new supa incentives. This coupled with another rate hike or two, leads me to believe property will suffer dearly over the next 10 or so months.
 
Realist said:
No offence if you are a car enthusiast.... But it says alot about someone who owns a brand new high performance European car and drives around the city.

It says to me they are too status concious, they waste their money

Realist,

I seem to remember you saying on another thread a few months back how much you enjoyed spending your money on going to clubs, fine restaurants and wagyu beef....

all of those things come under conspicuous consumption. The same can be said for sports cars, and I'm sure going out every weekend to Sapphire Lounge, Dragon Fly, Havana Bar, Ruby Rabbit etc will cost you just as much per year as a lease on a European car.

People who enjoy cars like to spend money on them, just as those who want to get from A to B only buy a Huyundai/Kia. Not all of them are status concious idiots.

BTW, youngtrader, you gotten that new car yet? Sold the M3 yet? PM me if you dont want to post it up :)
 
Lets see, I'll try and reply to as many posts in this one,

Realist: I agree, anyone who owns a high performance car like a Porsche (ALL Models except standard boxster and Cayenne), Merc SL 55AMG SLK 55AMG, BMW M3 M5 M6 and AUDI RS4 and doesn't drive it like it was meant to be driven annoys the **** out of me, just buy the standard models, if you ain't going to use it don't pay for the extra power and handling ;)

Michael S: Lambo Gallardo or big brother Murcielago, Porsche GT3 or Turbo, Ferrari 360 Modena or Spyder (All of them preferably)

Watsonc: I hear brothels are very very profitable, something to do with demand and supply, elasticity is in there some where and I've heard it helps if you have a large surplus ;)

Jay: Haven't sold yet, money has been going into business, property and shares

What a funny turn this thread took, lol
 
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