The Incorruptables

[basilio]

When someone dies their body decays.

Always.

Doesn't it ?

Not necessarily. There are hundreds of examples of people who have died but after death their bodies have stayed uncorrupted. How do we reconcile something that is impossible with the repeated evidence that it has happened.

Thoughts ? Check out the video and some of the URLs.

According to the laws of nature, when a person dies, the body decays, becoming corrupt and withering away. But there are saints in the Catholic Tradition whose bodies have defied all laws of science and have been preserved in ways which do not concur with the natural law. Science is as yet unable to explain them. There are dozens, if not hundreds of Saints considered to be Incorrupt. This video shows just a few.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jE0j8M1Pfo
http://www.overcomeproblems.com/incorruptables.htm
http://voices.yahoo.com/who-incorruptibles-they-represent-706615.html?cat=37

 

[Tink]

Thanks for sharing basilio
My thoughts -- some things just cant be explained.
There is alot more beyond just what we see.

 

[moXJO]

Very interesting subject bas, never really heard of it before. Did a little digging though.

Saint Bernadette

As part of the canonization process, her body was exhumed three separate times, in 1909, 1919, and finally in 1925, when she was moved to the crystal casket. Her body was pronounced by the church as officially "incorrupt," but it seems the qualifications for that term may have been somewhat lax. In the words of the attending doctor in 1919: "The body is practically mummified, covered with patches of mildew and quite a notable layer of salts, which appear to be calcium salts... The skin has disappeared in some places, but it is still present on most parts of the body."
After a few ribs were removed to be sent to Rome as relics, it was decided that the "blackish color" of her face might be off-putting to pilgrims, and so a "light wax mask" was in order. Her new face and hands were designed by Pierre Imans, a designer of fashion mannequins in Paris.

another link here

 

[basilio]

Good find MoXJO. Adds another element to the story.

I actually don't think the comments by The Skeptics discredits the facts surrounding incorruptibles. If you have a look at the scores of examples you will find many that have no evidence of embalming or special conditions of burial ect. In fact at least one was buried in quicklime to hasten decomposition!

The prettying up of St Bernadettes body didn't take away from the overall state of preservation. It was a cosmetic effort.

As you also noticed there have also been other examples of bodies not decaying including Hindu mystics. But teh phenomenon seems to be mostly evidenced amongst very pious Catholic/Christian deaths.

 

[springhill]

I am not sure if today's humans are incorruptible, but I distinctly remember reading that when modern day people die our bodies are taking longer to decompose than our ancestors due to all the preservatives we eat in processed foods.

Early day preservation revolved mostly around sugar, salt and oil.

At this rate of preservation addition maybe one day our future descendants will all be Incorruptables.

 

[basilio]

I followed up a link from moXJO comments and discovered a fascinating discussion on the chemistry of decomposition and a process called "Adipocere".

Very well worth a read.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080210033044/http://adipocere.homestead.com/chemistry.html

 

[moXJO]

Talking about strange things to do with dead people, does anyone remember the name of the group that would bury its dead in honey then eat them after something like 100 years.

 

[explod]

At the City Mortury unidentified bodies remain fully intact in cool rooms but the skin does darken over time.

As a kid on the farm a sheep would be bones in weeks due to other nature having a feast.

Could relate some stories on what blow flies can do to bodies in the summer time but my stomach is tougher than some here.

The mummies of Egypt some nearly 4,000 years old intact due to embalming. My guess is the saints have been coated in some sort of embalming sealer too.

Not one for miracles myself but would be open to proof as I would be the first to line up for heaven and have another bloody go if I could. How about every share you could get hold of in CBA for $5 or 6 dollars.

Was recently told that if you have been a bad sinner, even over your whole life, and you are prepared to repent and say sorry sincerely to God, that he would put you up to the front of the que at the gates of heaven.

Sorry strayed way off topic again.

 

[wayneL]

I am not sure if today's humans are incorruptible, but I distinctly remember reading that when modern day people die our bodies are taking longer to decompose than our ancestors due to all the preservatives we eat in processed foods.

Early day preservation revolved mostly around sugar, salt and oil.

At this rate of preservation addition maybe one day our future descendants will all be Incorruptables.

There doesn't seem to be enough investigation into this... as well as a barrow to push. I'm extremely sceptical.

Alcohol is a preservative isn't it?

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Shakespeare does not agree.

Golden lads and girls all must,
As chimney-sweepers, come to dust.

gg

 

[basilio]

I opened to thread to start discussion on how people react to apparently concrete evidence of things they believe are impossible or refuse to believe are possible. As I said dead bodies are supposed to decay ( allowing however for very particular circumstances such as extremely dry conditions, snap freezing. preservation in bogs, artificial embalming.)

The problem of course with my example was that it introduced a religious connotation. The belief is that the refusal of the body to corrupt is some type of "sign from God". So if you don't believe in "god" or the possibility of one then it might be very hard to accept that a body has not corrupted as a result of divine intervention. (But you probably be happy to see a scientific or secular solution.)

But be fair. I am saying that the evidence of incorruptibility should be the point to consider. Perhaps try to put aside views that "there is no God " and therefore this couldn't happen.

I remember many years ago there were persistent stories of little girls who somehow became boys when they reached puberty. Complete with all the tackle and later on having children

Despite many reports of this phenomenon the evidence was dismissed over many years because it simply couldn't be true... could it ?

In fact it was quite true. The scientific investigation behind the incidents completely rewrote our understanding of how men and women are formed.

 

[springhill]

There doesn't seem to be enough investigation into this... as well as a barrow to push. I'm extremely sceptical.

Alcohol is a preservative isn't it?

That is a possibility.
As a fresh food producer it is not my barrow to push, but if I wanted to view it from a marketing angle it would be a good one for the industry to gather evidence on preservatives and decomposition.

How ever processing businesses wish to run their operates is none of my beeswax.

Alcohol is one of the best, and well preserved tonight I shall be!

 

[bellenuit]

But teh phenomenon seems to be mostly evidenced amongst very pious Catholic/Christian deaths.

Basilio, I haven't read the links you provided yet and I am not trying to approach it from an anti religious point of view. But just to make some observations on the above comment.

Following a fatal shark attack there is usually an increase in the reported sightings of sharks in the same area. This can usually be attributed to the fact that people in the area scrutinise the sea more when the attack is fresh in their memories, than they normally would. So potential glimpses of sharks that would otherwise have gone unnoticed are now being noted.

The same might be said regarding the deaths of pious Christians. How on earth do they know that a higher percentage of them compared to the normal population do not decompose or decompose at an unusually slower rate? Aren't "normal" people usually buried within a few days, so there is no way to know who is not decomposing. How would they know that the pious Christian isn't decomposing unless for some reason they decide not to bury him or her or heaven forbid, dig the person up again. I would think that the reason the person hasn't decomposed is that that person is not being interred because of that person's reported holiness and is being left out for observation for an unusually long time (for instance after the death of a pope). Wouldn't those in charge be likely then to take measures that would delay decomposition?

Or probably closer to the shark analogy, ignoring any preservatives being applied, isn't it likely that a very pious person dying and decomposing very slowly is likely to result in a religious explanation being applied, whereas a non religious person dying and not decomposing would just be seen as an anomaly and just go unreported or unrecorded. Much like those who visit a psychic will hone in on those "revelations" that they want to believe and ignore everything else.

And although you are not attributing a religious explanation to the phenomenon, I would assume that if God were tampering with the laws of physics, then he would do it properly not half hearted. In other words, there would be no deterioration of the body of any sort, not even a slight discolouring.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

Some of the Toorak ladies would take a while to decompose I reckon... (silicone, alcohol) :

 

[explod]

Some of the Toorak ladies would take a while to decompose I reckon... (silicone, alcohol) :

But a very spritual element from this Toorak set would be the extra life injected (need I say it, see below*) into the vegie patch. In fact one could say that there is immortality in those there tomatoes.

My Daughter went to school at Mckillop Colledge at Werribee and just realised now where her wonderfull spiritual sense has come from, across the road at the Werribee sewerage farm

good thread

* excrement, not to be confused with a Saints Sacramental power of course.

 

[basilio]

Belllinit it is probably worth reading the links I provided to get more factual insight into the events I have discussed.

Fact is almost all the people mentioned had been dug up years, sometimes centuries after death. Sometimes more than once!

The comment about non pious people dying and not decomposing is interesting and worth pursuing. In fact the 2 later references I mentioned do note circumstances where bodies don't decay as expected. Quite interesting. In fact there was an example of a rather unholy guy who didn't decay and the Church was not interested in proposing his sanctity!!

Now, should God have done a proper job of preserving a body rather than a partial effort ? Sorry I havn't had a chance to chat with him/her on this one one...

______________________________________________________________________________

And to add a little more to the discussion check out the following link which shows preserved bodies which were non religious. (Mind you the Church would/could say theses were substantially different from their saints.)

http://web.archive.org/web/20080222011749/http://adipocere.homestead.com/images2.html