- Joined
- 3 July 2009
- Posts
- 27,633
- Reactions
- 24,515
Well, gas turbines burn more than gas, so may it's time to start thinking about a bio-fuel or hydrogen industry.Dutton to revive Morrison's 'gas-fired recovery' in election pledge to cut energy bills
Details of the coming promise to voters, which follows months of consultation with the gas industry, are being calibrated to counter Labor's likely strategy of ongoing direct-to-households energy bill relief.www.abc.net.au
I'm not a big fan of gas for generation either, it is too valuable and versatile fuel, to be burning it through a gas turbine to make electricity.
Just my opinion.
Like I said early on, it is best to be pragmatic about it and use what best suits the situation and have an open mind, the focus should be on outcomes not elections.Well, gas turbines burn more than gas, so may it's time to start thinking about a bio-fuel or hydrogen industry.
If they are just peaking plants then the fuel usage shouldn't be enormous.
All ways if you include the Greens.At the moment it is all about elections and never agreeing with the other side and that goes both ways.
Yes it is crazy, there will be technically advantageous way of doing this, that would deliver the smoothest, most secure and future proof outcome IMO that's what's needed.All ways if you include the Greens.
Biofuels do work in a technical sense there but, without wanting to sound like I'm jumping on your suggestion, there's a major flaw which is scale.Well, gas turbines burn more than gas, so may it's time to start thinking about a bio-fuel or hydrogen industry.
I've heard positive things about algae but there is a scale problem there as well.Biofuels do work in a technical sense there but, without wanting to sound like I'm jumping on your suggestion, there's a major flaw which is scale.
To produce enough natural gas by synthetic means, using hydrogen from electrolysis combined with carbon from biomass as the feedstock, would require approximately 64.7 GW of electricity supplied constantly and 124 million tonnes of wood per annum.
To put that into perspective, that's just over double Australia's present generation of electricity from all sources in all states, including generation by the mining industry, remote areas, rooftop solar etc as well as large scale generation in the main grid.
As for the wood, well suffice to say Tasmania was at one point highly controversially the world's single largest exporter of woodchips, producing 6 million tonnes per annum. We're going to need more than 20 times that amount and whilst it doesn't all need to come from Tasmania, bottom line is it far exceeds any sensible yield from the forests.
Agricultural crops? Well the entire world production of wheat is only a bit over 800 million tonnes. And the above figures are just to supply gas in Australia, nowhere else, and only natural gas at that. So that isn't including ethane gas (petrochemical feedstock), propane (LPG) or butane (LPG) just natural gas itself.
I trust the problem here is readily apparent. I'm in no way opposed to the idea of making use of waste materials from agriculture, offcuts from sawmills and the like as an energy source, that makes logical sense, but there just isn't enough of it to replace more than a tiny minority of the fossil fuels we use at present.
Worth noting that the reason the British started mining coal in earnest was simply that they were running out of trees to cut so the problem isn't new.
Whilst I've got the figures out, just adding that gas consumption isn't aligned with population. Share by state as follows (ACT is included in NSW figures):
WA = 45.1%
Queensland = 19.8%
Victoria = 14.5%
NSW = 9.2%
NT = 5.8%
SA = 5.1%
Tasmania = 0.5%
Key drivers of that are industrial use and electricity generation. % share of gas for specific uses as follows:
Mining and manufacturing:
Queensland = 64.6%
Victoria = 33.0%
NSW = 43.9%
WA = 53.6%
NT = 53.8%
SA = 33.0%
Tasmania = 59.7%
Electricity generation (note this is the % of gas used for electricity not the % of electricity from gas):
Queensland = 30.7%
Victoria = 9.8%
NSW = 17.1%
WA = 43.0%
NT = 44.9%
SA = 49.7%
Tasmania = 29.2%
Residential as a % of total gas use:
Queensland = 1.7%
Victoria = 42.6%
NSW = 24.3%
WA = 1.5%
NT = effectively zero
SA = 9.2%
Tasmania = 5.6%
Other uses (transport, non-industrial business, public services etc):
Queensland = 2.9%
Victoria = 14.6%
NSW = 14.7%
WA = 1.9%
NT = 1.2%
SA = 8.0%
Tasmania = 5.6%
All data from Australian Government statistics for 2022-23. End use figures for Tasmania should be used with caution given the overall small scale of gas consumption and the effect of rounding.
As a conclusion, realistically if we're to end the use of fossil natural gas then we need to use a lot less gas and that includes using far less than at present in power stations. Bearing in mind that replacement of residential use will take an extended period, and some industrial uses can't be replaced at all.
It’s bizarrely fashionable to declare that the energy transition needs to feature a diversified mix of power sources.
If diversified energy sources are great, then why not add wind, solar, hydrogen and hydro power to your car?
Because the costs are too high.
France has a diverse mix of generation.We’re all too busy thinking about subsidies, projects and jobs to acknowledge the French elephant in the room. A nuclear based grid that performs well.
Power Generation Type | SRMC (USD per MWh) | Notes |
---|---|---|
Solar PV | $0 - $10 | Minimal SRMC as sunlight is free. Costs may include minor maintenance. |
Wind (Onshore) | $0 - $10 | Very low SRMC since wind is free, with minimal maintenance costs. |
Hydropower | $5 - $20 | Depends on water availability. Low SRMC, but operational costs may vary. |
Nuclear Power | $10 - $30 | Fuel costs are low, but operational/maintenance costs contribute. |
Coal-Fired Power | $30 - $80 | Depends on coal prices, efficiency, and pollution control costs. |
Natural Gas (Combined Cycle) | $40 - $70 | Fuel costs dominate. Higher efficiency reduces SRMC. |
Natural Gas (Open Cycle) | $70 - $120 | Less efficient gas plants lead to higher SRMC. Used for peak demand. |
Diesel Generators | $150 - $300 | Very high SRMC due to expensive diesel fuel and low efficiency. |
Pumped Hydro Storage | $30 - $60 (net cost) | SRMC depends on electricity costs for pumping water. |
Battery Storage | $30 - $80 (net cost) | SRMC based on charging costs, efficiency, and degradation. |
Ahhh their ABC, me too, me tooThe massive growth of global solar energy.
A planet-wide solar boom is beating expectations at every turn
Satellite imagery reveals the staggering rise of solar farms around the world in recent years. Can Australia get on board?www.abc.net.au
I do not dispute the advantages of diversity, but for France, hydro far less seasonal than here 10% day in day out for the last 50 to 100 years, and an extra 65% on nuclear does not sound like a big diversity..The need for diversity has been well understood for over a century. Only real exception is in locations with enough hydro to use that exclusively, anywhere else benefits economically from a mix of generation.
Sir John Monash, after whom a university is named among other things (and he was indeed in charge of electricity in Victoria for many years) wrote a pretty decent layman's terms paper on the subject. He's been dead for 93 years but the fundamentals haven't changed in that building high capital cost plant for low capacity factor use is uneconomic, and building high short run marginal cost plant for high capacity factor use is also uneconomic.
That's pretty fundamental economics there, the trade off between capital versus operational cost and the need to build plant based on its intended usage.
What that argues against isn't solar, nuclear, coal, gas, hydro or anything else. What it argues against is the really quite bizarre notion that plant with different characteristics ought be in a market competing against each other. The very notion that low SRMC plant won't be operated consistently of itself destroys the economics of not just that generation but of the entire system.
In other words, if you're going to build high capital cost, low marginal cost plant (nuclear, wind, coal, solar etc) then it's completely irrational to not maximise use of it once built. Whether it should have been built or not is a separate question - once it's built, it's fundamentally irrational to turn it off and burn gas or diesel instead. That being so, there is no basis for a competitive market since the only rational outcome is entirely predictable and consistent operation of low SRMC plant, and the use of other plant for peaking. There's nothing to compete.
France has a diverse mix of generation.
Nuclear at 64.5%
Intermittent sources (tidal, wind and solar) at 14.3%
Hydro at 11.5%
Gas and oil at 7.0%
Coal, biomass and waste combustion is the remaining 2.7%
France like practically everywhere has a diverse mix because that's the cheapest way to do it. Exception if you've got abundant hydro or are somewhere like Qatar with lots of gas and limited alternatives.
The key is correctly using it. Low SRMC plant as base load, high SRMC plant as peak load, with a scale in between for intermediate load. Fundamentals that were true 100 years ago when Monash wrote about them and are still true today.
In term of engineering, i am in awe and stop by every wind farm i drive by.A excellent video on wind turbines, well worth a watch for those interested in actually knowing how things work.
Disregard the heading it isn't bagging wind turbines, just explaining them.
Yes a few posts back, I linked China's world's biggest wind turbine 20MW, which is an amazing size for a wind turbine.In term of engineering, i am in awe and stop by every wind farm i drive by.
The size is hard to comprehend, the engineering issues incredible...
It does not mean i am enamoured.
EV, wind turbines all are amazing engineering, but none are one size fits all holy grail....
It comes down to numbers.I do not dispute the advantages of diversity, but for France, hydro far less seasonal than here 10% day in day out for the last 50 to 100 years, and an extra 65% on nuclear does not sound like a big diversity..
You can have a pretty solid reliable grid nearly 100% coal or nuclear, any hydro if available the same.
It's called The Greens.More generically well one big problem is that Australia doesn't seem to want to use any of the available options. Plenty seem to like the idea of intermittent renewables, wind and solar, but ask them whether they prefer hydro, gas or diesel as the means of firming and they avoid answering the question. Therein lies a problem, big time.
Trying to step back.It comes down to numbers.
Using Victoria as an example well the capacity requirement to reliably meet peak demand is about 12.5GW but base load is only 4GW.
Now from a strictly economic perspective, installing 5GW of plant to meet that base load will result in 40% of the installed capacity producing about 71% of the total electricity generated. The right choice here is to install plant that's most economical in constant full operation - it makes perfect sense to spend big $ upfront in order to achieve low ongoing operational costs.
Meanwhile the upper 4GW of capacity will produce stuff all, most of the time it'll be completely idle and very rarely will it all run at once. It's just that without it society will face the occasional major crisis so it needs to exist. This plant will never make a profit as a standalone operation but it's needed in order to support the whole. With low usage the rational economic approach is to install capacity with the lowest capital cost and just accept the high operational cost that comes with it, with low usage that just won't matter. This 4GW of capacity, 32% of the total, will be generating less than 3% of the electricity but it needs to exist. On average it'll be running about 4% of the time.
In the middle sits plant that will operate routinely but generally not at full output. It'll be used to follow load on a daily basis and it needs to be both technically capable of doing that and economical when used in that role. Economically it needs to strike a balance - with operation well below full capacity there's a limit to how much it makes sense to spend more on capital so as to reduce operating costs, but operation is routine enough that operating cost is definitely a consideration. This 3.5GW of capacity, 28% of the total, will generate about 26% of the total system output. On average it'll be running about 40% of the time but that'll vary from 0 to 100.
Even if it was all going to be done with a single resource, gas, well rationally one builds high capital cost but high efficiency combined cycle plant for the base load, and they build lower capital cost but higher operating cost open cycle plant for the peak load. With a possible saving on gas infrastructure costs by not installing the full gas supply capacity to run it all, and just using diesel where needed to fill the gaps.
What I've described there isn't something I came up with, it's just how basically every electrical power system worldwide was actually developed. There's no politics, there's no ideology, it's just cold hard number crunching to determine what plant to install for what role. Power stations aren't all alike, they're part of the same team not competitors to each other.
Where it's all going wrong is with failing to do that. With failing to actually have a proper plan and with insisting on the rather bizarre idea that the high running cost plant ought compete constantly against the low running cost plant and doing so based on made up numbers. That can only ever increase cost, it can't possibly reduce it - that's maths not ideology but sadly it's a concept most in politics simply do not grasp that burning gas in preference to using an already built coal, nuclear, wind or solar facility can never save money, only waste it.
As for the reliability of hydro, the big issue in Australia is failing to properly develop it. As one example, the Kiewa scheme (Victoria). At present the scheme stores just 30% of annual inflow to the headwaters whereas with full development that would increase to 250% so 2.5 years' worth.
It's also possible to develop pumping from the West Kiewa, using surplus off-peak electricity (from whatever source - coal, nuclear, wind, solar) when available. Benefit of that is it quadruples the inflow of water able to be stored in the headwater storages.
Those two measures combined would effectively drought proof it. Store 2.5 years' worth of water, and quadruple the quantity of water able to be captured, and there's no drought on record under which it would fail or even come close to failure.
Bearing in mind that the roads are already built, as is the weir on the West Kiewa and so are 4 power stations. So it's a modification to an existing scheme, it's not something built from scratch. Environmentally well it means flooding about 10km2 of land - for perspective that's equivalent to just 0.1% of metropolitan Melbourne's 9992km2 footprint.
Similar opportunities exist elsewhere including NSW and Qld. Situations where the present scheme has never been fully developed and the main thing missing is water storage, leading to unreliable operation.
That's not to suggest we ought run the entire country with hydro, that's not going to happen, but Australia certainly does have undeveloped potential.
More generically well one big problem is that Australia doesn't seem to want to use any of the available options. Plenty seem to like the idea of intermittent renewables, wind and solar, but ask them whether they prefer hydro, gas or diesel as the means of firming and they avoid answering the question. Therein lies a problem, big time.
So what if the 5GW base load was supplied by nuclear, the variable component supplied by renewables + batteries and the upper 4GW supplied by hydro? That would be 100% emission free, secure generation.It comes down to numbers.
Using Victoria as an example well the capacity requirement to reliably meet peak demand is about 12.5GW but base load is only 4GW.
Now from a strictly economic perspective, installing 5GW of plant to meet that base load will result in 40% of the installed capacity producing about 71% of the total electricity generated. The right choice here is to install plant that's most economical in constant full operation - it makes perfect sense to spend big $ upfront in order to achieve low ongoing operational costs.
Meanwhile the upper 4GW of capacity will produce stuff all, most of the time it'll be completely idle and very rarely will it all run at once. It's just that without it society will face the occasional major crisis so it needs to exist. This plant will never make a profit as a standalone operation but it's needed in order to support the whole. With low usage the rational economic approach is to install capacity with the lowest capital cost and just accept the high operational cost that comes with it, with low usage that just won't matter. This 4GW of capacity, 32% of the total, will be generating less than 3% of the electricity but it needs to exist. On average it'll be running about 4% of the time.
In the middle sits plant that will operate routinely but generally not at full output. It'll be used to follow load on a daily basis and it needs to be both technically capable of doing that and economical when used in that role. Economically it needs to strike a balance - with operation well below full capacity there's a limit to how much it makes sense to spend more on capital so as to reduce operating costs, but operation is routine enough that operating cost is definitely a consideration. This 3.5GW of capacity, 28% of the total, will generate about 26% of the total system output. On average it'll be running about 40% of the time but that'll vary from 0 to 100.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?