The future of energy generation and storage

sptrawler said:

Sounds clever, the only thing that springs to mind, how much extra energy does it take to pump it back up the hill? If it is much more dense.

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Frictional losses would be a possible issue noting that it's already an issue, albeit not a massive one, with water.

Anything potentially growing in it would be another possible concern. For a present example, biofouling, which in layman's terms is algae clinging to the concrete, is quite a problem with the Tarraleah canals (Tas).

Cleaning is done but it's quite a task scrubbing a canal.

Sounds like the new head of the AEMO has a lot of experience in renewable transitioning, from the U.K.
From the article:
Daniel Westerman, an Australian engineer with extensive commercial experience including in renewable energy, has been chosen to head the country’s main energy market operator as the industry rapidly shifts away from fossil fuels.
Mr Westerman, whose resume includes stints as an engineer with Ford in Melbourne and more recently as president of the clean energy unit of British- and US-listed National Grid, will become chief executive and managing director of the Australian Energy Market Operator from May 17.

I did say a while back that W.A is in a good position to head toward zero emissions and would probably be the first in Australia to achieve it.
But even I think 2030 is a bit pie in the sky, time will tell.
Someone should give Barnett a call and ask for his take on it.

sptrawler said:

I did say a while back that W.A is in a good position to head toward zero emissions and would probably be the first in Australia to achieve it.
But even I think 2030 is a bit pie in the sky, time will tell.

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Happy to state on the record my view that it will not happen.

That is a definite statement not a maybe - it won't happen.

At best they might achieve 100% renewable electricity in that time, although even that's highly unlikely, but zero chance they'll achieve 100% renewable energy as is the claim.

I'm cynical enough to think that's intentional - claim 100% renewable energy then try and argue that oops, sorry, we meant to say electricity.

sptrawler said:

I did say a while back that W.A is in a good position to head toward zero emissions and would probably be the first in Australia to achieve it.
But even I think 2030 is a bit pie in the sky, time will tell.

WA Liberals target 100 pct renewables by 2030 in surprising climate plan

The West Australian Liberal climate plan has huge gap, but a surprising ambition to clean up the grid and reach 100 pct renewables by 2030. Is it just to save the furniture?

reneweconomy.com.au

Someone should give Barnett a call and ask for his take on it.

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A desperate attempt by an opposition that has no chance of winning and in my view is cynical enough to promise something that they have little intention of achieving.

SirRumpole said:

A desperate attempt by an opposition that has no chance of winning and in my view is cynical enough to promise something that they have little intention of achieving.

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No better way of winning votes than saying what the muppets want to hear, I think Albo went to the same lecture.lol
He is starting to talk legislating Australia zero by 2050, interesting how he will force the miners to go zero, when we are completly dependent on them? Maybe the taxpayer will replace all their equipment, interesting times.
Or maybe it is as you say a desperate attempt.lol

Smurf1976 said:

Happy to state on the record my view that it will not happen.

That is a definite statement not a maybe - it won't happen.

At best they might achieve 100% renewable electricity in that time, although even that's highly unlikely, but zero chance they'll achieve 100% renewable energy as is the claim.

I'm cynical enough to think that's intentional - claim 100% renewable energy then try and argue that oops, sorry, we meant to say electricity.

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That is exactly what I thought, but didnt want to say it because I would have been told Im a coal lover, because I operated them, Ive been hit with that chestnut before.lol

sptrawler said:

That is exactly what I thought, but didnt want to say it because I would have been told Im a coal lover

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Telling you what you already know but for others, generation in the SWIS (that's the South-West Interconnected System for those not familiar - the grid that covers the south-west of WA including Perth) generation over the past 12 months:

Gas = 36.6%
Coal = 35.8%
Wind = 14.0%
Solar = 13.1%
Biofuels = 0.5%
Diesel = 0.03%

For the rest of the state it really depends on location. For the NWIS (North-West Interconnected System) which is the other substantial grid in WA gas dominates.

Anywhere else, and there's a lot of towns and most of the state's geographic area which aren't on the main grid, it'll be gas or diesel with or without some contribution from wind and/or solar. Since there's no single grid covering the state it does come down to what town you're in.

Exception of the towns of Kununurra and Wyndham where the answer is hydro.

That's just electricity though and in WA electricity only accounts for about 15% of energy supplied to end users with gas and liquid fuels being overwhelmingly dominant at the point of use including in the mining industry (but even at the household level gas is ubiquitous in WA). Hence any policy that's talking about having a high percentage or even 100% renewable energy and not simply electricity by its very nature will be largely focused on things other than existing power stations.

While wind and solar only account for 27% of generation in the SWIS, there is a looming problem of too much supply at times. That already occurs in SA and WA's rapidly heading in the same direction so there's a real need to level out the load and to get that done "yesterday" since the clock's well and truly ticking there.

Eg Friday last week early in the afternoon wind and solar combined reached 80.0% of supply into the SW with coal and gas both very close to 10% each and it's pretty common to see wind + solar peak at ~ two thirds of supply on occasion as it did today. So there's a definite need to get load shifted where possible - both electrical load shifted from the peaks but also gas load shifted to electricity if the aim is to increase the share of renewables overall.

There is of course also a need for storage to be built - that's only part of the solution though, in a state where 85% of energy is supplied by non-electrical sources, mostly gas and oil, there's a need to change the usage as well if the aim is to go renewable.

There are viable pumped hydro sites within reasonable proximity of the SWIS yes.

Based on Australian Government data, total energy supply (not just electricity) in the whole of WA:

Gas = 53.0%
Oil = 34.8%
Coal = 10.1%
All renewable sources = 2.1%

WA electricity production for the whole state:

Gas = 61.5%
Coal = 23.8%
Oil = 5.8%
Wind = 4.4%
Solar = 3.7%
Hydro = 0.5%
Biofuels = 0.3%

Differs from the south-west alone since in the rest of the state gas and oil-based fuels are substantially more dominant.

The problem in W.A, storage, storage, storage.

Renewable generation isnt an issue, unless all the renewable generation is sold to overseas interests, as the gas over East has been.

sptrawler said:

The problem in W.A, storage, storage, storage.

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It can be built. Just need to actually build it.....

Batteries obviously for short duration storage and workable sites do exist for hydro. Not as easily as Tas or NSW but can be done.

Smurf1976 said:

It can be built. Just need to actually build it.....

Batteries obviously for short duration storage and workable sites do exist for hydro. Not as easily as Tas or NSW but can be done.

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Suggests that the prototypes being developed in the UK with mineral rich water as the fluid are well worth investigating.

They say a picture tells the story so I'll just post this one:



Yes that's a real working oil well with the pump running on solar.

Location = outback South Australia.

Company = Santos.

Photo isn't mine and the original can be found here: https://arena.gov.au/assets/2018/12/santos-image.jpg

Didn't get in quick enough for RheEnergise fund raiser.
Massively over subscribed. Have attached the story from Crowd Cube

Outline of RheEnergise technology.

One to keep our eyes on IMO, if it works there will be a huge market for it.

Bill Gates take on zero emissions.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02...issions-hardest-thing-humanitys-done/13156306
From the article:
Mr Gates told 7.30 the cost of "going green" globally would be over $5 trillion, unless there is new technology to help.

Like swapping petrol with electricity to power cars, Mr Gates wants to see other emissions-intensive energy sources replaced.

He said that as solar and wind were intermittent and not reliable year-round, nuclear power was a practical option.

"We either need a miracle invention to make batteries that are 20 times cheaper, so you can do that seasonal storage, so when you get a few weeks where [solar and wind] sources aren't there, you still can keep people warm," he said.

"Or, you need 25 per cent of your generation to be available, independent of the weather, and nuclear fission and fusion are really the only things that can work at that scale."

Global consulting firm EY in a survey came across startling facts regarding the changing consumption pattern in the UK’s energy sector.

scarlettsmith694 said:

Global consulting firm EY in a survey came across startling facts regarding the changing consumption pattern in the UK’s energy sector.

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Hi Scarlet, do you have a link to the information?

Now it's the US' turn:


China, France, Japan, US.....

There's a pattern here with all experiencing the same basic phenomenon in recent weeks. That of physical electricity shortages combine with natural gas trading at huge prices an order of magnitude higher than normal.

As has been noted previously, there are many places where infrastructure is stretched and which are thus vulnerable to such incidents, including some areas in which ASX-listed companies operate in this sector.