The future of energy generation and storage

Sun Cable’s $22 billion plans to build one of the world’s largest dispatchable solar and battery power stations, complete with the world’s largest subsea transmission link, have been put on the fast-track by the Australian federal government.
https://reneweconomy.com.au/sun-cab...port-plan-awarded-major-project-status-99423/

Not strictly about energy but it's being done by an electricity company.

There's no benefit to power production from this, indeed there would be a small loss of that, so it's purely an environmental measure.

Trevallyn Dam and the associated power station have been in operation since 1955, replacing the previous much smaller Duck Reach station which operated nearby during the period 1895 - 1955.

If you're ever in Launceston then the area's worth a look by the way. Even if you've zero interest in the engineering history aspects, the Gorge itself is a nice scenic spot. Walking from Kings Bridge up as far as Duck Reach and crossing the pedestrian bridge is doable if you're moderately fit and the starting point is just 1km from the Launceston CBD.

Smurf1976 said:

Not strictly about energy but it's being done by an electricity company.

There's no benefit to power production from this, indeed there would be a small loss of that, so it's purely an environmental measure.

Trevallyn Dam and the associated power station have been in operation since 1955, replacing the previous much smaller Duck Reach station which operated nearby during the period 1895 - 1955.

If you're ever in Launceston then the area's worth a look by the way. Even if you've zero interest in the engineering history aspects, the Gorge itself is a nice scenic spot. Walking from Kings Bridge up as far as Duck Reach and crossing the pedestrian bridge is doable if you're moderately fit and the starting point is just 1km from the Launceston CBD.

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That is a great walk smurf , well worth the effort, I saw on real estate.com the old managers house on the cliff above was for sale recently.

sptrawler said:

That is a great walk smurf , well worth the effort, I saw on real estate.com the old managers house on the cliff above was for sale recently.

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Incidentally I've been assured that a very long time ago they used a flying fox to get from that side with the houses to the old Duck Reach power station.

Now that's a way to commute to work!

It's a nice spot there yes, just keep out if there's a flood as it gets a bit more exciting. For those not familiar - location at the start of the video is the old (closed 1955) Duck Reach power station and at the end it's King's Bridge - literally on the edge of the Launceston CBD.

Normally there'd be only a trickle flowing down but a major flood changes that quite dramatically once the dam overflows. Many years ago I've actually walked across that river, below where the bridge is, without getting my feet wet.

So this is what the future energy system should look like in Australia
New gas-fired power not needed as renewable energy expands, grid operator says
The Australian Energy Market Operator (Aemo) has released a roadmap detailing what an optimal national electricity market would look like to 2040 if it was designed with a focus on security, reliability and the lowest cost for consumers.

Its integrated system plan, the result of 18 months consultation and analysis, describes a diverse system built on large and small-scale renewable energy supported by a range of “dispatchable” power sources that can be turned on and off when needed.

It says renewable energy may at times provide nearly 90% of electricity by 2035, the amount of gas-fired power will fall as pumped hydro and batteries come online and there is no place for new coal-fired generation.

Aemo says the plan focuses on what is best for consumers and could deliver $11bn in net benefits, but will require major investment in new transmission lines, with the cost of these projects having increased by 30%. It suggests solar panels backed by small batteries would provide between 13% and 22% of electricity by 2040, running alongside more than 26 gigawatts of new large solar and wind farms needed to replace 15-gigawatts of coal-fired generation that is scheduled to shut.
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-alternatives-on-renewable-grid-operator-says

Australia's electricity grid could run with 75% renewables, market operator says
Getting the regulations right will allow the secure expansion of wind and solar power, study finds
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...d-run-with-75-renewables-market-operator-says

See Bas it is happening, despite all the angst.
It is very interesting reading the two articles about the same document, how one can be very vague about the constraint issues and the other says it as it is.
I guess the newspaper doesn't want people to know too much, then they would have trouble putting spin on it.

sptrawler said:

See Bas it is happening, despite all the angst.

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Che ?? Che !!

What I posted was a road map prepared after extensive consultation through the Australian Energy Market Operator. The main players in the field talked with the most disinterested, expert parties to construct a plan that would meet the needs of customers for "security, reliability and lowest cost "

Which is wonderful for a plan.

What is required now is for the Federal Government to endorse that plan and enable it's execution as prescribed. And that means
1) Establishing the mechanism to upgrade new transmission lines

2) Encouraging the further development of renewable energy and energy storage facilities

3) Not promoting gas fired power stations (despite heavy industry politicking to do so)

4) Not allowing any new coal fired power stations to be approved (despite heavy industry politicking and many local MP's jumping on board

5) Being very cautious about efforts to promote nuclear power stations in Australia (again despite very strenuous business politicking.)

The second article I posted pointing out the need for Government regulations to enable renewables to be effective underpins the situation.

It all makes sense doesn't it ? But will it happen ?

Bas the transmission lines belong to the States, why would the Federal Government do anything other than help by giving grants, which they are already doing if you read earlier posts.

basilio said:

It all makes sense doesn't it ? But will it happen ?

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It's one of those things where the biggest problem is political baggage from the past.

Those in favour of heavy industry need to give up on the idea that coal or gas are the cheapest way forward, or that they're even cheap enough to consider. That rips the rug out from pretty much everything the Coalition has said on the subject.

Those at the "green" end of the spectrum have a similar problem. Big transmission lines, hydro projects and energy-intensive heavy industry - firmly ripping the rug out from just about everything the Greens ever said on the subject.

For the Labor party well it's time to rip up the party's 30 year love affair with gas. It's a situation that's still very much alive and well in Victoria especially where burning the stuff is not quite compulsory but you'll have to be pretty keen to avoid it, government pushes gas very hard via policy and has effectively guaranteed the industry's future for quite some time yet. Time to stop doing that yes and let alternatives at least be allowed to compete at the consumer level. Other states aren't so bad but they've all been down the track to some extent at some point and many of those legacies remain.

All sides of politics need to burn the legacy of even the recent past and therein lies the stumbling block politically. Of all professions, politics is about the worst when it comes to saying "we got it wrong".

I'm being blunt there yes.

Edit: Spelling.

sptrawler said:

the transmission lines belong to the States

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State government via a corporation (eg Tas Networks runs transmission and distribution in Tas and is 100% government owned) or privately owned (eg Electranet (transmission) and SA Power Networks (distribution) in SA) depending on which state.

Some comparatively minor amounts are owned by power stations, heavy industry, mining etc for the purpose of connecting their operations to the rest of the grid.

Also the odd more complex arrangement. Eg Basslink (Vic - Tas) is privately owned as such but heavily tied via contracts to Hydro Tasmania (which is ultimately government owned). So it's private with government backing.

Smurf1976 said:

All sides of politics need to burn the legacy of even the recent past and therein lies the stumbling block politically. Of all professions, politics is about the worst when it comes ot saying "we got it wrong".

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I agree.

BUT I think the out here is not saying we got it wrong but recognising there are totally new economic/industrial realities that have overtaken previous situations.

We can understand that businesses committed to a current, profitable but superseded technology want to stay in the game. But for the overall benefit of our community ( security, reliability and lowest cost statement...) we have to move on.

Smurf1976 said:

All sides of politics need to burn the legacy of even the recent past and therein lies the stumbling block politically. Of all professions, politics is about the worst when it comes to saying "we got it wrong".

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Of course !

Does it look like happening ?

I think some in Labor want to adopt the Coalition's emissions targets but others are stubborn and don't want to give in, while the Coalition just seems intractable.

There, I tried to be even handed, did I succeed ?

basilio said:

I agree.

BUT I think the out here is not saying we got it wrong but recognising there are totally new economic/industrial realities that have overtaken previous situations.

We can understand that businesses committed to a current, profitable but superseded technology want to stay in the game. But for the overall benefit of our community ( security, reliability and lowest cost statement...) we have to move on.

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I think I already posted AGL's statement, that they will and do want to get out of coal generation, but the only hold up really is people don't want to pay a premium for them to do it.
Somewhat like electric cars, there is no reason why lots of greenies can't buy an electric car, but they don't want to pay the money. Simple really.
Bas have you signed up for AGL's green electricity, costs a bit more but all for a good cause?
Maybe you've traded the ICE car in for an E.V or a hybrid?

basilio said:

BUT I think the out here is not saying we got it wrong but recognising there are totally new economic/industrial realities that have overtaken previous situations.

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We're on the same page.

To give a very specific example of what I'm on about, residential water heaters

In typical household situations water heating will be either the largest or second largest use of energy. Largest in more temperate climates, second largest in climates requiring prolonged use of heating or cooling systems.

Assuming a quality system in both cases and correctly installed, a heat pump will beat gas on energy efficiency, that is fossil fuel into the ground to hot water at your tap, in the majority of circumstances. Indeed even if 100% of the electricity used to run it is produced by the least efficient power station in the entire NEM, they'll still be roughly equal.

Since storing water in a tank is an incredibly cheap and easy form of energy storage, heat pump water heaters are also a perfect load to be run at times when surplus power generation is available. In that context it's worth noting that already we have some amount of distributed solar going to waste due to high voltage issues in distribution networks around midday and in some states, most notably SA but also rapidly approaching in Victoria, we have large scale wind / solar curtailed at times due to lack of load and we already have households being refused permission to export solar generated power to the grid at all in some cases.

Switching from gas to heat pumps for water heating is a dead easy fuel to electricity conversion compared to electric vehicles. The latter is doable sure but batteries ain't cheap and then there's the charging infrastructure and so on. By all means do that but water heating's a dead easy way to a similar end goal and one we can implement right away.

Now I'm not necessarily suggesting that heat pump water heaters ought to be compulsory, the $5K price tag is a definite issue for many, but I do take issue when government imposes rules to effectively prevent their use.

In Victoria under state rules it's not totally impossible to avoid if you're really keen on paperwork and legal type arguments but in practice the rules are pretty blunt. If there's a gas pipe running past the property then you can't install a heat pump water heater and connect it to mains power. The intent is rather clear yes.

In NSW it goes one step further with some local councils. In short they won't give building approval if gas isn't used. No gas main running past doesn't get you out of that since they'll have LPG well before they let you use electricity for the same purpose.

Every other state has at some point this century also promoted gas either via advertising at taxpayers' expense, direct handouts to the industry, laws requiring it be used and so on and in some states there's still a very definite and not so invisible hand pushing consumers toward gas with as much force as they can muster.

It's one thing if the lowest emissions option and renewables can't compete on price but it's another thing entirely when government outright blocks them or uses taxpayer funds to lead consumers in the other direction. That sort of thing needs to go without delay in my view since it's entrenching fossil fuels, and frustrating the adoption of renewables, for as long as those assets are in service (which will be many years to come, that's the biggest problem with it all).

That's one example, one that grates with quite a few in the energy / environmental space, but it's not the only one it's just an example.

Councils and their "aesthetic" objections to solar in certain places are another - 'cause yeah, everyone sits at home looking at their roof all day and admiring the satellite dishes, overhead power cables, chimneys, sewer vent pipes etc all of which the councils see no problem with.

Bas, have you changed to a heat pump hot water system, to go with your electric car and your solar panels and house batteries?
I mean you are so outspoken and dedicated to improving the planet, I bet you have done all of the above.
As if.
If all the outspoken people did the above, it would drive the agenda, but they don't they just rant and rave and make white noise that everyone has to work around.
The problem with the white noise, it actually causes more problems for the technical people, than the establishment.
Because the politicians are forced into poor decisions on popularity basis.

sptrawler said:

have you changed to a heat pump hot water system, to go with your electric car and your solar panels and house batteries?

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I won't question what others are doing but for the record:

Hot water: Sanden heat pump installed 2019 and it's set up to run in exactly the way I'm advocating during the middle of the day. 315 litre tank stores plenty of hot water, so only needs a heating period once a day.

Solar: 5.11kW with a 5.0kW inverter and a 5.0kW / 9.8 kWh battery. Can't fit any more panels on the roof unless I want them in the shade which would be pointless. Optimisers are on every panel and there's provision to add a second battery at a future time. Installed 2019.

Lighting: Mixed. Some's highly efficient, some's woeful. Will all be efficient in due course, just haven't done them all yet.

Insulation: R5 batts in the ceiling installed late 2018 by me. Nothing anywhere else, can't really get access to put it in easily.

Heating: Ye old skool oil burner circa 1965. I did spend a day cleaning its internals and tuning it up though and it runs nicely with a blue flame. The cat likes it and at this time of year spends the evenings in the immediate vicinity of it. But the cat isn't paying to fill up that big tank outside.....

Car: Petrol nothing fancy. I did include provision for future EV charging in the switchboard upgrade though. Could be added to the Off Peak Controlled Load or the main supply, there's adequate capacity in either.

Smurf1976 said:

I won't question what others are doing but for the record:

Hot water: Sanden heat pump installed 2019 and it's set up to run in exactly the way I'm advocating during the middle of the day. 315 litre tank stores plenty of hot water, so only needs a heating period once a day.

Solar: 5.11kW with a 5.0kW inverter and a 5.0kW / 9.8 kWh battery. Can't fit any more panels on the roof unless I want them in the shade which would be pointless. Optimisers are on every panel and there's provision to add a second battery at a future time. Installed 2019.

Lighting: Mixed. Some's highly efficient, some's woeful. Will all be efficient in due course, just haven't done them all yet.

Insulation: R5 batts in the ceiling installed late 2018 by me. Nothing anywhere else, can't really get access to put it in easily.

Heating: Ye old skool oil burner circa 1965. I did spend a day cleaning its internals and tuning it up though and it runs nicely with a blue flame. The cat likes it and at this time of year spends the evenings in the immediate vicinity of it. But the cat isn't paying to fill up that big tank outside.....

Car: Petrol nothing fancy. I did include provision for future EV charging in the switchboard upgrade though. Could be added to the Off Peak Controlled Load or the main supply, there's adequate capacity in either.

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Absolutely smurf, but you arent screaming about what the taxpayer should be paying for, you are just quietely doing it yourself, I just wish the muppets would do the same.
The ones who scream the most, obviously arent actually in struggle street.
That is the problem with society today, it is driven by those who shout loudest but arent actually representive of the silent majority.

sptrawler said:

Absolutely smurf, but you arent screaming about what the taxpayer should be paying for, you are just quietely doing it yourself, I just wish the muppets would do the same.
The ones who scream the most, obviously arent actually in struggle street.
That is the problem with society today, it is driven by those who shout loudest but arent actually representive of the silent majority.

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But the chance is the silent majority vote

So what have I done to improve my carbon footprint. ?
Plenty actually but clearly not enough to save the planet ..

I never will either and nor will the best individual efforts of the millions of people who do make small and large changes to their life to reduce their environmental impact.

The issues require action both personally and on the big picture. Changing the direction of industries to reduce their environmental impact whether its pollution, destroying ecosystems, or creating green house gases that will ultimately cook all our gooses is a government responsibility.

But it takes the silent majority to recognise, demand and support those changes.