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The future of energy generation and storage

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That's interesting in light of the story below.

Maybe the "breakthrough" is a big red button.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...s-to-manage-solar-power-output-in-sa/12202004
 
SirRumpole said:
That's interesting in light of the story below.

Maybe the "breakthrough" is a big red button.
Click to expand...
The problem has been brewing for a long time now and is coming to the crunch.

Generating lots of power in the middle of the day when demand is moderate works only if we also build mass scale storage and shift loads to that time of day. Failing that, we need to switch some off or otherwise cause it to stop working.

Bureaucracy stands in the way unfortunately. Getting the timers on electric water heaters changed in Vic and SA has proven to be somewhat more time consuming than putting a man on the moon was half a century ago. Meanwhile in Vic the state government pushes households strongly toward gas rather than putting some of this otherwise wasted solar energy to use. Gotta make sure that reduction in emissions is really slow and gradual, right?

Technically it's all pretty straightforward but there's a lot of politics and vested interests to be overcome on the journey unfortunately so the solution to that is more brutal approaches such as AEMO is proposing.

To be clear I've noting against AEMO's approach as such, I'm just noting that better options could have been implemented first. Well, they're better if the aim is to save money or emissions at least.
 
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The huge $22billion solar/wind farm, covering 14,000sq/klm , in the N/W of W.A moves a step closer.
https://www.boilingcold.com.au/pilbara-wind-solar-farm-gets-environmental-tick/
From the article:
The project now proposes to make a final investment decision in 2025 to build to 15 gigawatts of generation. Construction would start in 2026 to produce the first power the next year.

More than half the Hub’s power is now planned for use in the Pilbara to power mines, mineral processing and the anticipated large-scale production of green hydrogen.
 
Storage? Or do they plan to burn produced hydrogen..until it's prized for export too high for domestic use or contractual obligations forces us to import some back..ring a bell?
 
qldfrog said:
Storage? Or do they plan to burn produced hydrogen..until it's prized for export too high for domestic use or contractual obligations forces us to import some back..ring a bell?
Click to expand...
Exactly, I brought that up when the plant was first mentioned, I hope we have a domestic reservation policy.
 
The renewable debate, is starting to shift to the middle ground at last, the hydrogen industry will require all methods of production to be employed in the early stages. Then as renewable capacity is increased the fossil fueled production can be decreased.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...5-p54q38.html?js-chunk-not-found-refresh=true
From the article:
Australia's Chief Scientist Alan Finkel is backing the Morrison government's move to fund hydrogen projects fuelled by both fossil fuels and renewables as the best way to grow a potential powerhouse export industry.

However, Dr Finkel and renewable energy advocates argue wind and solar power offer the best commercial prospects for an Australian hydrogen industry.
Dr Finkel told The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age he expected electricity generated by solar and wind to drive Australia's nascent hydrogen industry in the "short to medium term".

But he also argues it would be irresponsible not to investigate gas as an alternate fuel source, which he said would provide valuable diversification of fuel sources for hydrogen production.
There are three methods to extract hydrogen, one is electrolysis that uses electricity to 'split' water, which can be powered by renewables in an emissions-free process.

The two other methods require thermochemical reactions. One uses gas and the other uses coal or gas, and for either to be a clean energy source they require carbon capture and storage to prevent the emissions from the fossil fuels getting into the atmosphere.


Dr Finkel said gas-fired hydrogen could reduce the risk associated with total reliance on renewable energy to generate the "massive quantities [of hydrogen] the world will need by 2050" if the Paris target of net zero emissions is achieved.
 
A glimmer of hope for politicians intelligence, there is a suggestion battery manufacturing may be on the horizon, it would be great but seeing is believing IMO.
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...l-loses-out-garnaut-says-20200506-p54qdt.html
From the article:
The Queensland government will underwrite private developer Neoen's $570 million in the Western Downs Green Power Hub with a commitment to buy 320 megawatts of power through the state-owned energy company CleanCo.

Ms Palaszczuk said "new economy minerals" such as copper, cobalt, zinc and lithium, which are needed to build wind turbines, solar panels and batteries, could boost the state's mining sector and lead to new manufacturing jobs.

"I want to see batteries manufactured here in Queensland because that means more secure long term jobs," she said.

So do we dear.
 
Things on the renewable front are still moving along.
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/06/1...lots-of-energy-storage-siemens-wants-to-help/
From the article:
The state of New South Wales, home to Sydney and its iconic opera house, has designated a large area north and west of that city as the site for 3 GW of new renewable energy systems. Called the Central West hub, it will be the first step in a planned 17.7 GW renewable energy system for NSW. Other renewable energy zones in the New England and South West area of the state will be developed to complete the plan, which government sources say will attract $14 billion in private investment and create 2,000 jobs.

According to PV Tech, the NSW climate plan released this year sets a target of 126 GWh solar energy by 2024, which is more than double the existing 55 GWh goal. Local regulators say 75% of the electricity in the state could come from renewables as soon as 2025, “provided action is taken against the imbalances triggered by increasing uptake of variable capacity.

Energy Storage Is The Key
The problem is not creating electricity from renewables. The problem is distributing it efficiently. Australia is vast in size, with enormous distances between its major cities. Its transmission infrastructure is outdated and frail in many cases — sort of like Puerto Rico but multiplied by a factor of 10,000.

Energy storage will be key to the transition to renewable energy. Wood Mackenzie released a study in May which warns that 67 GW of new renewable energy is at risk because of transmission constraints. Now Siemens and AES have formed a joint venture known as Fluence that wants to install two 250 MW/125 MWh battery storage facilities in Victoria and New South Wales to act as a “virtual transmission line” between the two states, according to a report by Recharge News. In a filing with the Australian Energy Market Operator, Fluence says it could complete both projects in 14 months once approval is granted.

Fluence says the effect of the batteries on the network would be similar to “widening a highway instantaneously to accommodate surges in traffic” and eliminate the the need for costly new transmission infrastructure. Neoen, the owner/operator of the Hornsdale facility, is also proposing a 600 MW battery facility near Melbourne.
 

I'm not sure what time period they're referring to with that 126 GWh but presumably it's not annual. Perhaps it's weekly? Daily?

For reference, over the past 12 months (14 June 2019 - 13 June 2020) for NSW:

Total consumption = 72,887 GWh

Sources:
Coal = 54,065 GWh
Solar = 5035 GWh
Wind = 4516 GWh
Net import from Queensland = 4460 GWh
Gas = 2056 GWh
Hydro = 2055 GWh
Net import from Victoria (including from SA and Tas via Vic) = 594 GWh
Kerosene / Diesel = 3.3 GWh

In case anyone's wondering why the hydro figure is so low, the simple explanation is that the Snowy scheme is physically all in NSW but electrically quite a bit of it's in Victoria and thus shows up in figures for that state not NSW.
 
Yes smurf 126GWh installed in 3-4 years would be unrealistic, but the intent to install renewables is obvious and the real issue of storage is finally being recognised.
 

I think Australia needs to bring nuclear into our energy mix. Considering that Australia has the world's largest uranium resources, it is absolutely absurd that we haven't established a commercial nuclear industry in Australia.

I support hydrogen as a transportation fuel and hope to see such an industry establish itself as soon as possible. Hydrogen is simple to produce via electrolysis.
 
https://www.sapowernetworks.com.au/data/307798/sa-energy-transition-initiatives-welcomed/

Some significant changes publicly announced today for the power industry in SA.

In particular, I'll draw attention to a couple of points:

Encouraging more loads, such as water heating, to shift to the daytime to soak up extra (and cheaper) solar generation
Click to expand...

Suffice to say that this Smurf has been on about this one for quite some time and I've had mine at home up and running for a while now. Conceptually dead easy, just a lot of bureaucracy has been in the way of doing it.

Making it mandatory for retailers to offer customers innovative network tariffs to soak up daytime solar
Click to expand...

Emphasis mine.

I doubt there'll be too much screaming from retailers beyond perhaps one or two but basically it comes down to engineers, backed by government, giving the orders that retailers shall be pricing in a manner which encourages desirable behaviour by consumers.

In short we need more load in the middle of the day as first priority and ideally less during the evening peak and more between 1am and 6am would be nice too but that's somewhat secondary as a consideration.

It's not a price control order, but it's a decree as to the structure of it - retailers must offer consumers the option of pricing which aligns with network capacity and generation requirements. Consumers are under no obligation to take up such an offer however (well, not yet.....).

Unlike in Tasmania where doing this was all pretty easy, just get everyone in the same room (literally so) and agree, that can't really be done in SA given there's multiple companies involved both on the generation and retail side but this approach is a workaround to that in practice.

The reason, ultimately, is about dealing with increasing amounts of intermittent generation in the system especially small scale solar (households) noting that total generation from wind and solar (combined) in SA over the past 12 months was equivalent to 57.4% of consumption, a figure which continues to trend upward.

The downside of course is that it's a case of closing the gate after the horse has bolted. 4 out of the past 7 days has seen wind generation curtailed, 3 out of the past 7 days has seen large scale solar curtailed during daytime, etc.

Financially well it's another thing in the mix for companies involved in the industry. Those involved with wind and solar stand to gain from resolving all this and not having so much potential output going to waste. Retailers maybe a bit less happy at being told what they must do, but ultimately they shouldn't lose money out of it on the retail side although for some it won't help the profits of their generation operations which benefit from price and demand volatility.

Also a good thing for the environment, lower CO2 emissions.

Plus of course good for everyone if it keeps the lights on. The major near miss event of 31 January would seem to have scared the proverbial out of government so they're keener on listening to technical people, and less keen on listening to non-technical people, about all this now it seems and some of the legal and other bureaucratic barriers are being brushed aside.
 
Great news smurf, IMO it shows the S.A government is taking responsibility for the generation mix it chose, rather than expecting the Eastern States grid to absorb its irregular generation output.
To me it shows a more mature holistic approach to achieve a renewable grid.
Also on the same topic, in S.A the power to switch off household solar has been granted.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06...t-risk-of-another-statewide-blackout/12372558
From the article:
Electricity grid operators will seize the power to remotely switch off new solar panels in South Australia amid warnings the state's solar boom is putting the grid at risk of another statewide blackout.
The State Government will also underwrite an urgent $10 million investment to manage voltage in the state's power grid, after the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) warned that a voltage disturbance near Adelaide could see up to half South Australia's photovoltaic cells simultaneously switch off.

The AEMO report outlines the challenge that SA's world-leading penetration of solar energy is now posing for the grid.

About 278,000 households — 35 per cent — have solar installed.

AEMO says South Australia is "the first large-scale power system in the world to approach zero net operational energy demand — even for very short time periods — due to high proportions of demand being met by solar PV."

"We're not very far away from the electricity going into the grid being more than the electricity being drawn out. That would create a statewide blackout," Mr van Holst Pellekaan said.

It kind of highlights the issues, you and I have been talking about for nearly 10 years and others have been poo paing them.

But no doubt the muppet show will get onboard and say it is all BS, is there any wonder Australia is going through the problems we are, so many with so little knowledge with so much say.
 
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sptrawler said:
It kind of highlights the issues, you and I have been talking about for nearly 10 years and others have been poo paing them.
Click to expand...
As I'm sure you're well aware, there never was anything impossible about this stuff, the whole thing's just a classic case of failing to apply a logical approach to the problem.

Too much politics basically. From all sides.
 
Smurf1976 said:
As I'm sure you're well aware, there never was anything impossible about this stuff, the whole thing's just a classic case of failing to apply a logical approach to the problem.

Too much politics basically. From all sides.
Click to expand...
Absolutely, the private sector wanting compensation, the private sector wanting subsidies, the private sector wanting guaranteed offtake contracts, the private sector wanting.
That is why the Government has to be carefull, as we have discussed getting renewable generators is easy it is cheaper than fossil fuel, getting storage and grid transmission infrastructure upgrades is much more difficult, the balancing act is the problem.

If the Government just opens the cheque book, it will be a disaster as you know, it is a case of supply and demand.
The installation of the renewables, has to be complimented by the storage to mitigate the intermittency, if it isn't, then fossil fueled generation can't be retired.
Simple really.
We are getting to the point, that any renewable installation, has to have a storage capacity included IMO.

We don't have a big grid, it is achievable, it doesn't need Government subsidies.
It can be self funded through profits, or else we will have another NBN debacle where the tax payer pays for the replacement of something they own.
WTF is wrong with people? obviously the rich don't give a $hit and talk everyone into paying for something that the retailer should pay for.
Just my opinion.
 
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Which is exactly what I said to you ages ago, the easiest way to shut down coal is to reduce demand.
 
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