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From memory similar happened in W.A, the generators, ended up carrying most the debt from the gas pipe and the take or pay contract Kwinana was converted to burn gas. Again from memory I'm pretty sure most of Alinta's debt was handed to the generators, when Alinta was privatised.I'm not sure about other states but in some at least it was the reverse.
The Victorian and SA governments were both propped up by cheap SECV and ETSA funds over the years never the reverse. That's why the utilities ended up in quite a bit of debt - the state government in Victoria especially held a gun to the head and demanded huge dividends for which money was borrowed to pay. By the early 1990's the debt in Vic was crippling and that was the end of it.
NSW government got up to similar antics even before that and their subsequent panic and over-reaction, following by another stuff up by a later state government, has quite a bit to do with where we are today.
Labor governments in all cases for the record except the latter debacle in NSW which was Liberal.
Smurf do you think it will be more difficult as summers go on, or is there some serious generation coming in the near future, before Snowy2?The forecast for Wednesday 29th at this stage is a near miss in NSW.
NSW forecast maximum demand = 12,970 MW
Generation available in NSW = 12,399 MW
Supply from Qld can fill the gap but there's not a lot of room to move if anything fails. AEMO estimates the spare capacity available at 856 MW so it would only need a generation fault or the weather to be a bit warmer and there'd be a problem.
That's not trying to run around saying the sky is falling but just pointing out this is all rather stretched really.
Current plant outages in NSW:
Eraring #3 - 700 MW (coal, Origin Energy)
Liddell #2 - 420 MW (coal, AGL)
Tallawarra - 435 MW (gas, Energy Australia
For NSW there was a change of decision by the owners of a small CCGT plant. It was 171 MW with 3 gas turbines and 1 steam turbine and was going to close in 2018 but with the situation they changed their mind and kept the three small gas turbines in open cycle configuration with a combined output of 109 MW. The steam turbine is gone though.Smurf do you think it will be more difficult as summers go on, or is there some serious generation coming in the near future, before Snowy2?
I frame the problems from different perspectives, noting you tackle them in a fashion.There's really four aspects to the overall dilemma:
1. Need to meet the technical (electrical) requirements. Fail that and the lights really will go out, no question about it.
2. Financial cost both in terms of the actual costs and the price charged to consumers.
3. Use of natural resources. 50Hz AC power does not exist anywhere in nature, it is a completely man-made thing, and in order produce it requires that some source of primary energy be used. Some of the available sources of primary energy are plentiful and with minimal consequences to their use but others are physically limited, or entail broader implications such as importing from unstable or unfriendly sources, and a valid question exists as to whether or not is is sensible to use these resources to generate electricity? That is particularly so in the case of relatively limited non-renewable resources which have important uses for other purposes.
4. Environment. The mainstream environmental movement is often associated with trees and whales but it's a matter of historical fact that in the Australian context the movement had already tackled issues relating to hydro-electric schemes versus the wilderness, pollution and the use of limited resources at gas-fired power stations and the generic concept of building a nuclear power station several years before the movement focused on anything relating to trees.
However, the States seem unwilling given it defeats the purpose of a NEM,
You can call it what you want, but it is the lawful operational framework we operate within.Yes, but the NEM is an ideological framework formed by the belief that privatisation always results in the best deal for consumers. That is patently not the case in the electricity market and other essential services, so why cling to a failed belief system ?
It's not a good situation in multiple parts of Tas at the moment with the fires. Hence the crews from Vic, NSW, SA and NZ attending in addition to local fire crews and volunteers.Very dangerous fires in Tasmania at the moment. What did catch my eye was comments about threats to power generation and transmission lines. Could cause trouble there and in the Eastern States as they export power
Very dangerous fires in Tasmania at the moment. What did catch my eye was comments about threats to power generation and transmission lines. Could cause trouble there and in the Eastern States as they export power.
Tasmania fires: scores of blazes rage as residents asked to conserve water
Fears Tasmanian bushfires will worsen as temperatures forecast to peak in mid-30s with winds up to 40km/h
....Chief fire officer Chris Arnol has warned it is likely more homes will be lost. There is also a threat to critical infrastructure including power generation and transmission lines.
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...zes-rage-as-residents-asked-to-conserve-water
As a general comment debates about energy have long tended to take on a religious like nature and that goes back a very long way.Yes, but the NEM is an ideological framework formed by the belief that privatisation always results in the best deal for consumers
Suffice to say neither can beat the privately owned retailers in the same market to any major extent since they're all faced with similar costs.
True but my point is more that the market structure as it exists today increases costs for anyone regardless of ownership.Sure government controlled retailers in many ways can't compete with privates but they are expected to be there tomorrow and next year as opposed to companies than can close their books at any time, declare bankruptcy, avoid social obligations and leave an unsightly mess behind.
The good thing though is that SECWA had planned ahead just in case something like that ever happened and put an OCGT out the back of Kwinana PS just in case.Fires can be a big problem, they trip lines very easily.
I was at work in the 1990's, when the two transmission lines between Muja and Perth (Kwinana) tripped, 'blacked' out the grid.
Given the NEM does not work that way, the expectation is unrealistic.Sure government controlled retailers in many ways can't compete with privates but they are expected to be there tomorrow and next year as opposed to companies than can close their books at any time, declare bankruptcy, avoid social obligations and leave an unsightly mess behind.
The difference is that the NEM is the principal market, and other generators need to apply to the regulator to not come under AEMO.There is room for both in the market, just as there is room for public and private schools and public and private hospitals, but inevitably it's the public sector that end up carrying the load when businesses fail, the trick is getting the mix right and not letting ideology get in the way.
What is now ironic is that the lights have since gone out and are likely to keep going out for the many years ahead because Snowy 2.0 is simply too slow in coming.
Good summation Rumpy, you have been listening to smurf.Yes.
The situation as I see it, from my amateur point of view is,
* Our current coal stations are getting towards the end of their lives and those that own them don't want to maintain them any more.
* New coal stations take a long time to build. (6+ years)
* Large scale storage like more hydro is going to take a long time to build, so a lot of renewables will go to waste.
* Intermittency of current renewables is a problem for the grid without sufficient storage.
* Baseload power will still be needed untill storage and more renewables come online.
* We have a lot of gas which we are currently exporting at cheap prices.
Therefore my conclusion is that the best medium term solution is to build more gas fired plants, both open cycle (online sooner) and CCGT (more efficient) to fill the baseload power gap while we are building Snowy Hydro 2.0 and other Hydro sites and more renewables.
Whatever we do is going to cost a lot of money. We should aim for the best technical solution , penny pinching is going to do more harm than good in the long run.
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