The future of energy generation and storage

PZ99 said:

In the long run I think they should go for a massive pumped hydro rollout. Solar is OK but better used in northern states. Coal is our second largest export income. Sell more coal to fund hydro.

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Sounds good, what excess generation, are you going to pump the hydro with?

sptrawler said:

Sounds good, what excess generation, are you going to pump the hydro with?

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Victoria is connected to the NEM. So the "solar spills" from QLD would be a good starting point.

The amount of output is so high it's actually flooding the grid during the day.

PZ99 said:

Victoria is connected to the NEM. So the "solar spills" from QLD would be a good starting point.

The amount of output is so high it's actually flooding the grid during the day.

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Sounds like a plan.

"A sharp rise in the number of solar rooftop installations in Queensland is flooding the network and could lead to blackouts or frequency issues, Energy Networks Australia says.

Chief Executive Andrew Dillon said the electricity grid was not designed to cope with the amount of energy being generated in the middle of the day when demand is low, resulting in "solar spill".

"We have almost one in three households in Queensland that have solar panels on their roof and to be honest, by world standards, that is off the chart," Mr Dillon said.

"Places like Hawaii and California are more like 20 per cent so Queensland is really a world leader.

"So that's great for renewable energy generation but it's creating some real challenges for the networks operating the grid when you have that much energy coming back in in the middle of the day."

Mr Dillon said most networks were created in a time when there was a significant one-way flow from major coal fired power stations into households.

"For a while the network has operated really well to be honest, as a solar sponge being able to soak up this generation — but once we get to certain levels, if we don't start getting smarter about how we manage it, we will see some technical issues," he said.

Mr Dillon said if the issue was not addressed, problems could occur.

"The first one is we start to get voltage and frequency issues, which can damage equipment or even localise outages," he said.

"The second one is we have networks saying to customers wanting to connect solar, 'No you can't do it because we're full'."

Or, he said, the networks may end up having to spend a fortune to upgrade their facilities.

Queensland Energy Minister Dr Anthony Lynham said the Government had introduced several measures to future-proof the network.

"We have to move the peak that we're seeing during the middle of the day when we have solar, to that night time cooking peak, and we're doing that," Dr Lynham said.

"The big thing we're doing obviously is the pumped hydro, the big Wivenhoe pumped hydro storage solution. That's 570 megawatts … that's a coal-fired power station.

"So during the middle of the day when all the solar panels on roofs are working, we're storing energy through pumping water up the top of the hill at Wivenhoe and at night time we're driving it back down."

Dr Lynham said the Government was taking a smart approach to the issue.

"We're bringing on an interest-free loan scheme for batteries later on this year," he said.

"Instead of peaking your hot water at night when power used to be cheap, you peak your hot water during the day, you have your pool pump running during the middle of the day when the solar is on.

"And also you can't have a normal meter installed in a house — if you build a house or change your meter it must be a smart meter so all those controls are available to the household."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-...r-rooftop-installations-flooding-grid/9845924

Sounds like a plan

Sounds like you have worked it out.
I look forward to the outcome.

Vic is part of the NEM and so is Qld yes but there's a problem in so far as Qld > NSW transmission is already heavily loaded much of the time. For NSW - Vic it depends on everything from temperature (load) to wind speed in SA but it's moderately common that NSW > Vic is at maximum (and has been very common in the past few days).

So I'm not saying "can't be done" just saying that there's some significant bottlenecks to overcome first.

As for solar, well closer in the context of Vic is SA which has a more extreme version of the situation in Qld. Already the lowest loads in SA are occurring during the early afternoon on mild days, not the middle of the night, and with ongoing rapid deployment of solar generation that's going to increase.

Once SA gets to the point of distributed generation supplying the whole load, well then that starts to get rather tricky technically and since it's not far away, a few years at most, it's something that really does need to be addressed without delay.

LOL > OK. Pretty sure a solar farm won't be restricted to just QLD and SA

Maybe we should just leave it to the engineers as previously stated.

Oops... can't do that either. They're endorsing renewables too

PZ99 said:

LOL > OK. Pretty sure a solar farm won't be restricted to just QLD and SA

Maybe we should just leave it to the engineers as previously stated.

Oops... can't do that either. They're endorsing renewables too

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Nobody disagrees with renewables, and electric cars, and homes being self sufficient regarding energy.
It just has to be managed, with system demands and dynamics, and what is realistically feasible at this point in time.
We are getting way ahead of the curve. IMO
But your heart is in the right place.

Smurf, do smart meters log your energy use data?

sptrawler said:

Nobody disagrees with renewables, and electric cars, and homes being self sufficient regarding energy.
It just has to be managed, with system demands and dynamics, and what is realistically feasible at this point in time.

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Yep.

Using SA as an example there's rather a lot of renewable energy going to waste from facilities which have been built but are forced off due to network limitations.

Things being what they are, even the most blindingly obvious workaround of changing the time of heating water is turning out to be more difficult to get done than it ought to be.

So yes this can be done but there's a lot of things which need to be brought along for the ride both technical and in terms of cultural and bureaucratic things as well otherwise less than ideal results are achieved.

The really big one though is the prospect in SA of rooftop solar generation exceeding total (state wide) demand within just a few years. Once that happens, it becomes problematic to operate the SA grid without the link to Vic being there.

So if the link fails then the immediate consequence is a surplus of generation in SA and a need for a small number of large power stations to stay running and effectively force the solar inverters to throttle back. Works in theory but nobody has tested it on anything approaching the scale involved here so how it works in practice is an unknown. Could be OK or could end up with no power anywhere between Mount Gambier and Penong.

I'm by no means against going forward with all this. It's just that in Australia we're more enthusiastic about the building bit than the planning and I'd like to see a balance there.

moXJO said:

Smurf, do smart meters log your energy use data?

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What they record depends on where you are.

Vic is the only state that has done a comprehensive roll-out of them. They record in a lot of detail about volume of consumption and when it occurs which is accessed by electricity retailers.

Other states have some but haven't done a bulk roll-out as Vic has, they've just put them in when meters need changing for whatever reason and aren't generally using the data in the detail that it is used in Vic.

A complication is that as part of the latest national "reforms" we now have electricity retailers looking after metering and they're not all doing the same thing. Some just stick with whatever meter the customer has but others are very keen to put a smart meter in.

Smurf1976 said:

What they record depends on where you are.

Vic is the only state that has done a comprehensive roll-out of them. They record in a lot of detail about volume of consumption and when it occurs which is accessed by electricity retailers.

Other states have some but haven't done a bulk roll-out as Vic has, they've just put them in when meters need changing for whatever reason and aren't generally using the data in the detail that it is used in Vic.

A complication is that as part of the latest national "reforms" we now have electricity retailers looking after metering and they're not all doing the same thing. Some just stick with whatever meter the customer has but others are very keen to put a smart meter in.

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In W.A the owner has to replace the inductive disc meter, with a smart meter, if they install solar.
The Government, seems to be slowly replacing all meters with smart meters, but I don't think there is a concerted push. ATM

BP and Shell are investing Big into Electric charging infrastructure.

Value Collector said:

BP and Shell are investing Big into Electric charging infrastructure.

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With no thought of monopolies in transport fuel ?

SirRumpole said:

With no thought of monopolies in transport fuel ?

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Its going to be very hard for them to get a monopoly, with people being able to charge at home for household electricity rates it would put a cap on what people would be willing to pay.

Not to mention the dozens of competitors from other unrelated industries that will pop up offering free or subsidised charging to try and get people in to use their services.

Eg.

NRMA is currently building a nation wide charging network that will be Free for their road side assistance members.

I could also see Coles or woolies offering free or low rate charging while you shop if you spend a certain amount.

Parking garages might offer cheap charging to customers to get people to choose their parking locations over competitors.

I could see towns on traditional road trip routes that have been bypassed offering free charging to try and get people to turn off the freeway and into their town for a rest stop.


With electricity available anywhere, people will be going to traditional service stations less often, mainly on road trips, and the places they choose to stop might not be traditional service stations, charging points will probably pop up in nicer places.

without having to have all the cost and drama of storing flammable fuels, we might see a whole host of new businesses popping up trying to attract the travellers, offering all sorts of rest stop features.

Value Collector said:

without having to have all the cost and drama of storing flammable fuels, we might see a whole host of new businesses popping up trying to attract the travellers, offering all sorts of rest stop features.

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Given that the supply of solar PV in Qld now exceeds the demand in that State there will be plenty of opportunities to buy the excess and charge vehicles.

On a road trip, I normally make 3 types of stops.

1, Toilet Break and leg stretching - Normally at road side rest stops and parks etc.

2, Food and drink stops - Normally at a take away shop or cafe.

3, Fuel stops - Normally 2 stops at a smelly petrol station.

If I could cut out having to stop at a petrol stations (3), and instead charge for 15mins when I make one of my stops at (1) and (2), Not only would I save time, But I would probably have a more enjoyable trip, I would much rather stop at a nice rest stop than a busy fuel station.

It would be super easy to add charging facilities with Tap and pay, at rest stops.

Value Collector said:

On a road trip, I normally make 3 types of stops.

1, Toilet Break and leg stretching - Normally at road side rest stops and parks etc.

2, Food and drink stops - Normally at a take away shop or cafe.

3, Fuel stops - Normally 2 stops at a smelly petrol station.

If I could cut out having to stop at a petrol stations (3), and instead charge for 15mins when I make one of my stops at (1) and (2), Not only would I save time, But I would probably have a more enjoyable trip, I would much rather stop at a nice rest stop than a busy fuel station.

It would be super easy to add charging facilities with Tap and pay, at rest stops.

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The only problem VC, is when will you get the car?
Get your money back and buy a Nissan Leaf, just my thoughts, the Tesla and your deposit will go the same way.
The Nissan is probably the leader of the pack, at the moment and is priced well.

Value Collector said:

I would much rather stop at a nice rest stop than a busy fuel station.

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Agreed although to me a nice rest stop is next to the park, lake, bush or whatever and definitely not outside any sort of business.

No reason chargers can’t be put in such places though. Just means probably owned by the council etc and not some cafe that charges $5 for a piece of cake so small it’s hardly worth bothering with. (Yeah, I’m not a cafe person that’s for sure......).

We stayed here a few nights ago



Just in behind here

Only about two kilometres off the road down a dirt track. Nice spot for a charging station.