The Australian Greens party

Smurf1976 · 14 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

craft said:
I have paddled the Franklin River quite a few times. Whatever you think of Bob Browns politics the Franklin is an awesome legacy he leaves behind and I’m eternally grateful. I have met him a few times when returning from a bush walk that starts and finishes at the Liffey property he has now donated to the Bush Heritage Fund. I found him a thoroughly decent bloke. Always offers you a cuppa and his is the only property that I have ever seen the sign “Trespassers welcome”.

Somewhat strangely, I actually agree on that point. It is a magnificent river that's for sure.

Where I strongly disagree is that the decision to save that river was used to prevent the construction of not only that dam but of practically any other large dam on any other river in the state.

There's a need for balance in this and any other debate. Stopping that dam was arguably the correct decision from a conservation perspective. But stopping the construction of other dams which had absolutely nothing to do with that river is hard to accept as a reasonable position, especially not given the consequences for other environmental issues (ie fossil fuel use) and the wellbeing of humans (particularly those at the lower end of the socio-economic scale).

I have a lot of respect for Bob in some ways, but he is unfortunately a master of appearing reasonable whilst actually implementing a somewhat extreme agenda.

No flooding of the lower third of the Franklin? Fair enough. No dams anywhere on any other rivers, including those already dammed upstream? That's extreme to say the least but it's what actually occurred and this was intentional at the time.

Calliope · 14 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

craft said:
That’s the sort of crap I'm sure he won't miss. Your post says much more about you than him.

No need to take a hissy fit. This is Paul Thomas's "crap." He said yesterday:

"I am also looking forward to him perhaps sharing a greater load of the household tasks at home and also just having time to share as a couple in the things that couples do," he said at a press conference where the Australian Greens leader announced his retirement.

"Here comes the washing up," Senator Brown quipped.

Smurf1976 · 14 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

craft said:
That’s the sort of crap I'm sure he won't miss. Your post says much more about you than him.

Much as I disagree with many of Bob's political views, his private life and sexuality is irrelevant so far as I am concerned and is not a relevant point of debate.

Miss Hale · 14 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

IFocus said:
Fracing in the farm heart land might well change that.

The proposed coal mine in Margret River moved many to the Greens in the region.

I never said there would be no issues that both the Greens and people in regional areas might have the same view on but the reality is that most people in regional areas do not subscribe to the ideals, philosophy etc. of the Greens and recognise that the Greens do not represent their best interests, there is another party that does that called The Nationals. Milne, therefore, will have a huge task to win over 'the bush' as she put it and not one I think she can ever achieve (withour major policy changes).

Keep rolling those eyes..........

Will do, with the Greens around it's not hard

Calliope · 14 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Smurf1976 said:
Much as I disagree with many of Bob's political views, his private life and sexuality is irrelevant so far as I am concerned and is not a relevant point of debate.

I wasn't debating anything. I was commenting on a news item. And are you saying that his sexual preferences and advocacy for same sex marriage did not attract the gay vote? In that respect it is highly relevant. Milne will struggle to keep them.

Julia · 14 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Smurf1976 said:
but he is unfortunately a master of appearing reasonable whilst actually implementing a somewhat extreme agenda.

Yes, this is his most distinguishing characteristic imo: the avuncular, genial, pleasant demeanour which masks some immensely damaging policies.

joea · 14 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Well I think Bob had a little bit of influence on all of us, no doubt some will not agree.
There has been many things changed to the better in Agriculture because of a push that originated by Bob.(even if it was to have a pause to think).
I think that many area's of research were wallowing for support, and the greens did gather that support that supplied the funds to continue in the right direction.
e.g. Cane farmers in my area decided to just drop the fertilizer on top of the trash blanket.
You guessed it, the rain would push it out to sea. It is now put back under the surface.
I have read "Back from the Brink", and "Beyond the Brink". They were and eye opener to me, although they are not linked to the Greens.
I now use every weed without a seed and reapply it to my garden. (through a chipper)

What I firmly believe is, that we should concentrate more on the positives from people, than beating up the bad things they may have or may not have suggested.

Finally I never saw Bob in the Senate say "Bring it on"!!!
I think Bob opened a chapter in Australia that we had to have.
I am not a Green.
And as Forrest said, " that's all I got to say about that".
joea

joea · 14 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Well I had a little think!

"Progress is a nice word. But change is its motivator and change has its enemies."
Robert Kennedy 1925 - 1968.

joea

Smurf1976 · 14 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Calliope said:
I wasn't debating anything. I was commenting on a news item. And are you saying that his sexual preferences and advocacy for same sex marriage did not attract the gay vote? In that respect it is highly relevant. Milne will struggle to keep them.

I have attended many development versus environment debates, rallies etc and addressed some of them myself. Suffice to say that I have lost count of the number of times that I've heard spiteful comments about Bob's sexuality in those situations.

For a time I became an advocate for gay rights as a direct result of this. I also took to wearing a pink shirt to all such environment / development debates and rallies for the sake of making at least a few people think.

Yes, he has attracted the gay vote to some extent and I see no problem with that. I do however see a problem when opponents seek to discredit his environmental or other views on the basis of his sexuality, which is clearly an unrelated matter.

For the record, I am heterosexual and always have been. But there's a principle here.

With regard to Bob himself, I will simply say this. Can anyone think of a more influential Australian politician over the past 30 years? Love him or hate him, he has undoubtedly had a major influence first in Tasmania and more recently at the national level.

Calliope · 14 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Smurf1976 said:
For a time I became an advocate for gay rights as a direct result of this. I also took to wearing a pink shirt to all such environment / development debates and rallies for the sake of making at least a few people think.

I apologise if I have offended your sensibilities. However your implication that I made a spiteful remark is just a cheap shot. I now understand why you feel so protective of Bob Brown. He, however doesn't need you protection. He came out of the closet years ago and is proud of his sexual orientation.

By the way do you associate pink shirts with gay men? Stereotyping? And how would you wearing one make "a few people think"?

craft · 14 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Smurf1976 said:
Where I strongly disagree is that the decision to save that river was used to prevent the construction of not only that dam but of practically any other large dam on any other river in the state.

I'm not acroos this well enought to have an opinion

Smurf1976 said:
There's a need for balance in this and any other debate.

This I totally agree with, however I dispear that that is achievable - just look at this thread as a microcosm of our society. The lack of respect for different views just builds so many barriers.

Are you a fellow Tasmanian?

craft · 14 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Calliope said:
No need to take a hissy fit.

IF you motivations were innocent - I apologise.

Calliope · 14 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

craft said:
IF you motivations were innocent - I apologise.

What do you mean by "IF"? And what "motivations" are you talking about? Are you just having another cheap shot?

IF your apology was sincere I would accept it.

Smurf1976 · 15 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Calliope said:
I apologise if I have offended your sensibilities. However your implication that I made a spiteful remark is just a cheap shot. I now understand why you feel so protective of Bob Brown. He, however doesn't need you protection. He came out of the closet years ago and is proud of his sexual orientation.

By the way do you associate pink shirts with gay men? Stereotyping? And how would you wearing one make "a few people think"?

I am personally not offended, not in the slightest. My point is aimed at anyone (not specifically you) and is "play the ball, not the man".

I would make a comparable comment to those who observe that US President Obama is black. Yes he is, and that's completely irrelevant in the context of US policy on just about anything. I've no doubt that the fact would have been mentioned many times in certain circles however, and the undertone is clear.

Pink shirts? Well to be honest sometimes it takes a brick and that's one way of doing it. Walk into a room full of people who hate Brown dressed in anything that raises even the slightest question regarding sexuality and I can assure you that eyebrows will be raised. Such is the extent to which many choose to mix completely separate issues - I've even heard plenty of others who "would vote Green if Bob wasn't gay".

Sadly, some people see the private life of others as a major issue. Go back to the 1990's and homosexuality was actually illegal. And of course there were those bumper stickers too, many of them a thinly veiled shot at Brown being displayed by people angry over his views on dams and forestry but who really didn't care about homosexuality itself as an issue.

Sitar · 15 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

i've met bob brown on many occasions and often heard him speak. i have the greatest of admiration for bob - he is a true gentleman in the best sense of the word. i wish him continued success for his future.

and congratulations to christine milne too. she is a very capable and wise woman and the greens are lucky to have her!

This is an interesting comment from an article in today's SMH:

“The party's performance under his (bob brown's) leadership has been impressive: "The Greens have increased their share of the vote at five federal elections in a row," says the Herald's pollster, Nielsen's John Stirton. "It's something no party has ever done before."

I see this trend continuing with christine m. as the greens leader. As we continue to pollute our environment and overpopulate the planet, the greens' policies will become increasingly imperative if our species wants to survive ........except for those people with a death wish who want to cling to the values of the old, dying industrial age, and who have no regard for future generations.

i'll keep voting green.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/greens-sustainable-future-20120413-1wyux.\
html

rumpole · 15 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Sitar said:
i've met bob brown on many occasions and often heard him speak. i have the greatest of admiration for bob - he is a true gentleman in the best sense of the word. i wish him continued success for his future.

and congratulations to christine milne too. she is a very capable and wise woman and the greens are lucky to have her!

This is an interesting comment from an article in today's SMH:

“The party's performance under his (bob brown's) leadership has been impressive: "The Greens have increased their share of the vote at five federal elections in a row," says the Herald's pollster, Nielsen's John Stirton. "It's something no party has ever done before."

I see this trend continuing with christine m. as the greens leader. As we continue to pollute our environment and overpopulate the planet, the greens' policies will become increasingly imperative if our species wants to survive ........except for those people with a death wish who want to cling to the values of the old, dying industrial age, and who have no regard for future generations.

i'll keep voting green.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/greens-sustainable-future-20120413-1wyux.\
html

It has been good to hear an alternative voice to the "lets plunder the country then retire to the Bahamas" brigade, and you are right, Bob Brown has always been a gentleman who focussed on policy issues, not personal attacks.

There have been some blind spots in their policies imo, opposition to hydro power one of the cleanest forms of energy on the planet, and their lack of opposition to increased migration and population growth which will spoil the environment faster than anything else.

Bob will be hard to replace. Christine Milne has always sounded a bit shrill and strident to me, unlike Bob's relaxed and thoughtful approach, but good luck to her.

drsmith · 15 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

rumpole said:
There have been some blind spots in their policies imo, opposition to hydro power one of the cleanest forms of energy on the planet, and their lack of opposition to increased migration and population growth which will spoil the environment faster than anything else.

The latter would be related to the fact, as recently revealed by Bob Brown himself, that he does not have Australia's sovereign interest at heart.

Calliope · 15 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Smurf1976 said:
.My point is aimed at anyone (not specifically you) and is "play the ball, not the man".

Of course it was made specifically at me in support of crafts's nasty remark.

Pink shirts? Well to be honest sometimes it takes a brick and that's one way of doing it. Walk into a room full of people who hate Brown dressed in anything that raises even the slightest question regarding sexuality and I can assure you that eyebrows will be raised. Such is the extent to which many choose to mix completely separate issues - I've even heard plenty of others who "would vote Green if Bob wasn't gay".

What you don't realise is that the world has moved on since your pink shirt, eyebrow raising dabble into the gay world. Gays are fully capable of looking after their own interests, and the idea of do-gooders like you and craft trying to cocoon them from the nasty homophobic world is very condescending.

However as far as I am concerned it is all water under the bridge.

Revenons Ã nos moutons.

Miss Hale · 15 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Julia said:
Yes, this is his most distinguishing characteristic imo: the avuncular, genial, pleasant demeanour which masks some immensely damaging policies.

Agree, he came across as completely benign but his policies are nothing of the sort. Kudos to him for being able to do this. I can't see Milne however being as skilled as Brown was at this.

Logique · 15 April 2012

Re: The Greens - The New Radical Socialists

Miss Hale said:
...that most people in regional areas do not subscribe to the ideals, philosophy etc. of the Greens and recognise that the Greens do not represent their best interests, there is another party that does that called The Nationals. Milne, therefore, will have a huge task to win over 'the bush' as she put it and not one I think she can ever achieve (withour major policy changes)...

Indeed. The Greens put the cleaners through the bush a long time ago. A string of easy victories, over soft targets. The carbon tax runs in a direct line back to the barricades at forests and dams. Country folks were the canaries in the figurative coalmine, but nobody heard.

They'd be advised to have the police riot squad in attendance if they go back looking for friends. People don't forget.

The inner city is their patch, and what they know best.

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