The answer is decentralisation

The answer is decentralisation. The question is "why is there a fuel,traffic,house and land price problem".

There is a problem because everything associated with work, finance, health, sport, etc is crowded into the cities. This requires, in most cases, people to travel long distances daily to use or access those services as not everyone can live on their doorstep. Tomorrow I will travel 250km, to visit a medical specialist because there is no local one available. If I lived in a city suburb I would still have to travel many kilometers through traffic to visit and would have trouble parking when I got there.

When I'm on the road I will pass trucks taking produce from my area to the city markets, I will also see some bringing the same produce back to the local supermarket.

I will be joined in the traffic some people travelling to work from as far as 60km away and coming in the other direction there will be some travelling to work as well. I'm thinking of those living on the Gold Coast but working in Brisbane and those living in Brisbane but working on the Gold Coast. When I get to Brisbane I will get into traffic congested by those who live on the north side but work on the south side and vice versa.

I will wonder how everyone I see at the medical centre got to work, how far they travelled and how they got there. If they drove I will wonder how and where they parked. If I visit my sister in Brisbane I may have trouble parking near her house. The houses on either side host 11 cars between them with most being parked on the street. They both have uni aged children who must have a car each as it is "the only way they can get to uni".

The time has come to put the services and industry where the people are and not to keep trying to get the people to them. It's time for people to find a job as close to their home as they can or better still work from home.

The answer is not less centralisation. its more efficient public transport. Whats the point of having a brain surgeon in every country town if they have to travel 259 Km to get to an adequately equipped and supported Hospital???????

And no the answer is not to duplicate a brain surgery unit fully staffed in every town. That would just lead to wasted, duplicated and under utilised hospitals.

Same goes for every "business" always better to have large centralized and fully utilized companies rather many small scaled down copies. Its the efficient access that is needed.

Would you invest in a company, for example BHP, that said we are going to "de-synergize"(think I just invented a word) our company and duplicate every department in every remote site we are involved in?????? I think not.

Trembling Hand said:

The answer is not less centralisation. its more efficient public transport. Whats the point of having a brain surgeon in every country town if they have to travel 259 Km to get to an adequately equipped and supported Hospital???????

And no the answer is not to duplicate a brain surgery unit fully staffed in every town. That would just lead to wasted, duplicated and under utilised hospitals.

Same goes for every "business" always better to have large centralized and fully utilized companies rather many small scaled down copies. Its the efficient access that is needed.

Would you invest in a company, for example BHP, that said we are going to "de-synergize"(think I just invented a word) our company and duplicate every department in every remote site we are involved in?????? I think not.

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Agreed.

In fact, I believe further centralisation to be the answer. We need to be living vertically, & having everything available within high rise property - as opposed to using up more land space.

I believe examples such as this are the answer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_City_1000

An excellent use of vertical space - one could have all the medical, security, emergency, & commercial facilities (also employment) available within the one building - whilst still having ample residential space available.

I think making life easier for those that choose to live in the country is simply a waste of resources; help the farmers of course ; but if you're otherwise living in an isolated area by your own choice - why should my tax dollars build you a hospital out there for very few people?

Trembling Hand said:

The answer is not less centralisation. its more efficient public transport. Whats the point of having a brain surgeon in every country town if they have to travel 259 Km to get to an adequately equipped and supported Hospital???????

And no the answer is not to duplicate a brain surgery unit fully staffed in every town. That would just lead to wasted, duplicated and under utilised hospitals.

Same goes for every "business" always better to have large centralized and fully utilized companies rather many small scaled down copies. Its the efficient access that is needed.

Would you invest in a company, for example BHP, that said we are going to "de-synergize"(think I just invented a word) our company and duplicate every department in every remote site we are involved in?????? I think not.

Click to expand...

I can't agree. If I want brain surgery I expect to go to the centre as I would hope all the facilities are there but if I need to see a neurologist I think they need not all be in the city.

However that is not the point I make. I am referring to ALL the traffic that is on the road at a given time. Where are they going and why?. I'm referring to produce locally produced, going to a city market then returning to it's area of orign. I'm referring to steel and tin being freighted to China and returning here as tin plate because there is none produced in Aus.

BHP itself is an example of decentralisation. I expect the "heart" to be centralised but the operations decentralised. However a lot of it's employees chose to live a long way from their actual place of employment. A lot fly in to their mines. Should I pay the cost of their carbon footprint because they choose to live in the city but work in the bush?.

With modern communication technology do everyone working for the administration need to be in the same building at the same time. Take call centres as an example they can be in India for telstra. Does the NRMA need all theirs to be in the centre of Sydney? ( that may be a bad example because I don't know where the NRMA has theirs)

I once had an employee ask for a rise. He did not have the reason that he contributed more and deserved it but that he now lived 30km further than before and with his v8 holden his travel costs had gone up.?????????

Nyden said:

An excellent use of vertical space - one could have all the medical, security, emergency, & commercial facilities (also employment) available within the one building - whilst still having ample residential space available.
I think making life easier for those that choose to live in the country is simply a waste of resources; help the farmers of course ; but if you're otherwise living in an isolated area by your own choice - why should my tax dollars build you a hospital out there for very few people?

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It is not only farmers that live out of the major cities. You won't see a lot of farmers at the Gold coast, Coffs harbour or even Lismore these days.They are centres where government policy has closed down services and moved them to the cities.

I'll bet those working in your vertical space would live elsewhere and commute to work.

nioka said:

However that is not the point I make. I am referring to ALL the traffic that is on the road at a given time. Where are they going and why?. I'm referring to produce locally produced, going to a city market then returning to it's area of orign. I'm referring to steel and tin being freighted to China and returning here as tin plate because there is none produced in Aus.

BHP itself is an example of decentralisation. I expect the "heart" to be centralised but the operations decentralised. However a lot of it's employees chose to live a long way from their actual place of employment. A lot fly in to their mines. Should I pay the cost of their carbon footprint because they choose to live in the city but work in the bush?.

Click to expand...

This is where your argument fall apart. Fly in fly out is actually very efficient. If they all lived in the bush then all the services would then have to be duplicated in the bush, Doctor, Dentist, Hospital, Department store, Schools, Uni, housing, utilities etc. How efficient and diverse would the University of Port headland or Newman be? You cannot seriously argue that it would be more efficient to duplicate everything in the bush. Economically or Environmentally.

As for shipping stuff out to ship it back, it does make sense because of economies of scale and specialization. If all our produce and products came from our own region then the food system would collapse. Manufacturing would offer less products at a higher price. And the Environment would be raped even more to produce less. But I'm not sure why I'm arguing this. I thought the start of the industrialization proved that some 300 years ago?

nioka said:

It is not only farmers that live out of the major cities. You won't see a lot of farmers at the Gold coast, Coffs harbour or even Lismore these days.They are centres where government policy has closed down services and moved them to the cities.

I'll bet those working in your vertical space would live elsewhere and commute to work.

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I would love to live in the same building as my place of work; think of the time, & money saved! Why wouldn't others? It wouldn't be like sleeping in an office, as such a building could more than accommodate all.

Well, I guess my point is that those who choose to not live in the city, or at least close to - shall simply suffer the "consequences" of their decision. Government, tax-payers, nor corporations (ie Telstra being made to set up broadband in the middle of the desert) should foot the bill to accommodate these people.

Hello All

I work on a mine site, and do the FIFO roster, i am lucky as i only drive 2 min to work when i am here or a 5-10 min walk. Building a whole town for a small site like mine would be uneconomical and enviromenatlly costly.

And i also believe that more high rises and centralised living is the way to go. One of the problems with Perth at the moment is, it has spread so far out. Mainly because the government and it's people where scared of building up, and wanted to keep that rural city type feel. I think this is starting to change over here and development is slowly going ahead.

Centralised living, effiecient and reliable public transport, so that people will use, and leave the car at home

my 2 cents worth

Trav

I agree with both Nioka and TH. Less centralisation = better quality of life IMO. Better transport infrastructure within and between these less centralised planning arrangements = better quality of life.

The potential is there. In Australia there is exists a number of so-called regional centers. The problem is that there is such a large culture gap between the inner parts of the big cities and the outer most suburbs, let alone that which exists between the inner parts of the cities and the 'regional centers'.

It might sound pompous to talk about things in these terms, but if you want to get real, a lot of people don't choose where they're going to live just because of a cheap housing, a short commute and lots of space around them.

Building code and materials would have to improve significantly to lure me to Vertical City.

nioka said:

I can't agree. If I want brain surgery I expect to go to the centre as I would hope all the facilities are there but if I need to see a neurologist I think they need not all be in the city.

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Nioka, you are not taking account of the professional needs of the doctors concerned. Most doctors who have done all the additional study required to acquire a specialty such as neurology, want to remain in the company of their peers. They simply don't want to bury themselves in the country where there is a dearth of colleague stimulation and feedback.

Consequently many (if not most) specialists found in regional centres are less than first rate. Occasional exceptions, of course, where they want to bring up the kids out of a major city, but on the whole decentralisation of medicine is completely impractical.

Much better for those of us who live in regional areas to travel to the expertise if we have to. This is just one example of the downside of living in a regional area. Another is lack of cultural facilities.
So either we have all the crap of a big city with traffic gridlock etc for the sake of having excellent facilities at hand, or we choose the regions for a peaceful lifestyle but one which lacks the facilities. Everything is a compromise.

Why don't you all just move to Ballarat.

best move we ever made

Julia said:

Nioka, you are not taking account of the professional needs of the doctors concerned. Most doctors who have done all the additional study required to acquire a specialty such as neurology, want to remain in the company of their peers. They simply don't want to bury themselves in the country where there is a dearth of colleague stimulation and feedback.

Consequently many (if not most) specialists found in regional centres are less than first rate. Occasional exceptions, of course, where they want to bring up the kids out of a major city, but on the whole decentralisation of medicine is completely impractical.

Much better for those of us who live in regional areas to travel to the expertise if we have to. This is just one example of the downside of living in a regional area. Another is lack of cultural facilities.
So either we have all the crap of a big city with traffic gridlock etc for the sake of having excellent facilities at hand, or we choose the regions for a peaceful lifestyle but one which lacks the facilities. Everything is a compromise.

Click to expand...

I did not get my point across properly. While my trip tomorrow is medical I am referring mainly to what I expect to encounter during the trip. I make regular trips to Brisbane and indeed past Harvey Bay at times. I'm continually amazed at the traffic that I know from experience is wasted effort.
I'm actually going to see a specialist for treatment I could have locally but I agree the best are in the city.

The industrial economy works well with centralisation and public transport. We all travel in one direction to work then back again to go home.

The post-industrial or geodesic economy by it's very nature requires private transport and all sorts of things moving in all different directions at the same time. No longer A to B, now it's C to Z and H to W. Public transport fails under that scenario unless it's expanded to the point where it uses more fuel than running a car.

If you look at the service economy in a physical sense then the primary thing it does is generate road and air traffic. It doesn't produce physical wealth, but it sure burns a lot of oil.

Australia is a big place and we just aint got that many people...for decentralization
to work u need the need for more centers, and for that u need people and the
development to attract those people.

All state Govts are city centric cos thats where there power base is..thats where
the votes are, so thats where the money goes....anyone who has lived in the
countryside knows that, and thats prob only 1 in 5 of us.

I know people in there 20s and 30s who have lived in sydney all there lives and
they don't know where Hornsby is.